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Together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.
date posted: May 07, 2008 5:33 AM  |  updated: May 07, 2008 11:23 AM
Obi-Wan say it isn't so. Or, just where did Luke get his Dark side training?
Hi everyone,

Just let me begin by saying how proud I was to receive MM13's blogger of the week award, although I'm under no illusions, I got it for being a newbie rather than for any artistic merit.
Never the less I shall endeavour to live up to such esteemed company.

For those of you who have been following my attempt to change my screen name with great interest and even for those following it with belligerent indifference I can announce success, those lovely people, the mods, have let me change it to ...(drum roll) ...Darth Buir (Mando for father). My original choice. Thanks again to all those who offered advice.

If your still reading I'll get to the point, and if your not still reading then move along.
While watching ROTJ with my padawans my youngest asked me something that got me thinking about the whole subject of Jedi training. We were at the point where Luke is entering Jabba's palace and is confronted by the Gamorrean Guards.
He asked me, "How can Luke 'Force choke', that's a Sith power?" (He knows this from battlefront) and to be honest I was stumped. ?:| I've watched this movie scores of times and just not noticed it.

I'm slowly working my way through the EU lit. I'm trying to do it chronologically so the answer may be out there, but I'd assumed that Luke was being trained by the ghostly Obi-Wan, in which case, I can't believe that this is something he would pass on. So then it leads to the conclusion that this is something that Luke has taught himself. How? Is there some element of a Dark side lineage to the Skywalker line? If so, where from, as Anakin was supposedly conceived through the Force?

It got me thinking as to the nature of a Jedi's training and how skills are passed on. Do Jedi Masters simply act as mentors nudging padawans in the right direction with words of wisdom as their abilities grow. Or is the training a more regimented system of teaching, where lessons are taught and then the pupils tested on that knowledge. We see very little of the actual training in the movies apart from the AOTC scene with Yoda and the younglings. In the books I've read the lessons are predominantly Lightsaber lessons, although Path of Destruction mentions Darth Bane studying holocrons.

If anyone has any thoughts on this I'd be delighted to hear them.

MTFBWY DD

usetheforce19
MasterMonkey13
date Posted: May 07, 2008 6:06 AM
I believe that the Jedi in the Republic era were taught under a regimented system. We see Yoda in AOTC teaching the young ones in a lesson. Later, the Padawans moved on to seperate masters were they were taught by him or her alone.

After the fall of the Republic, the training system was messed up because there were only one or two masters left. Of course, the Empire would crush any effort that the Jedi made to get a training school developed. Luke basically was taught the simple principles by Obi and Yoda and was left to learn on his own.
usetheforce19
MasterMonkey13
date Posted: May 07, 2008 6:09 AM
Thus, when he used Force choke in Episode VI, he was just using a technique he'd learned. Maybe he hadn't learned it from Obi or Yoda. By the way, kudos to your padawan for recognizing this from Battlefront. The Force is strong with him.

Anyway, you got the award not just for being a newbie, but because your first two blogs were very, very good.
nob01
Oil Bath Bubbles
date Posted: May 07, 2008 10:14 AM
I love it when folks point out things I'd never noticed before - and love it even more when it is a child that does so!
Your son (who by the way, pulls off the cute but evil look most impressively) made a great point - and now I must meditate on this further.
I guess Luke was in too much of a hurry to employ the negotiating tactics of his former teacher :)
Cheers, DD!
Jade Sabre777
A luminous being, I am...
date Posted: May 07, 2008 12:23 PM
...Darth Buir (Mando for father).
Excellent choice! :D

"How can Luke 'Force choke', that's a Sith power?"
I too have wondered this. I guess the answer I've always come up with is that after the fall of the Order, the line between Sith powers and Jedi powers wasn't as clearly drawn, minus the Sith lightning. As for where he learned it, he probably could have just made it up himself. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination. ;)
Jade Sabre777
A luminous being, I am...
date Posted: May 07, 2008 12:28 PM
I'm slowly working my way through the EU lit. I'm trying to do it chronologically
Hey, you too? Awesome! :D

Or is the training a more regimented system of teaching, where lessons are taught and then the pupils tested on that knowledge.
I'm sure it was more along these lines, at least before the Order fell. I have no clue about the New Jedi Order.

The padawans are adorable, btw! ;)


Granny-Wan
I Am NOT an Old Fossil!
date Posted: May 07, 2008 8:31 PM
I don't remember anyone saying that's only a Sith talent... Mace Windu force choked General Greivious, that's where he got his cough... or at least that's what I read...

Luke only choked them momentarily, he didn't kill them... maybe that makes it OK... I think the end result is what matters...

Darth_Hiram
A Journey into The Force
date Posted: May 07, 2008 8:32 PM
Good entry! I find it interesting, as well, that Luke used an offensive tactic like Force choking the guards, instead of maybe just pinning them to the wall to get by. I haven't really taken notice until you pointed it out, and I've also watched it countless times! I guess being the only Jedi in action left he was trying anything to protect himself ... without knowing too many Sith powers. Almost like a knee-jerk reaction to defend himself.
cowboy_11c
Musings from the Shadowlands
date Posted: May 08, 2008 12:25 AM
This kind of touches on something I've talked about with others before. Some powers aren't inherently evil in and of themselves, but the intent in which they are employed. In this instance, it was used merely to get the Gammoreans out of the way and not cause lasting harm. However, the manner in which he entered and the "negotiation" with Jabba seemed to me to be very arrogant. Perhaps it was a product of his inexperience.
YainiFett
Kyrimout Mountains
date Posted: May 08, 2008 5:25 AM
It depends on how you use it. I mean, Luke was rescuing Han so do the ends justify the means? And there is the fact he didnt kill them. Good to have another Mando(sort of)
Darth_Buir
Together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.
date Posted: May 09, 2008 4:32 AM
Thanks everyone,
you've given us plenty to discuss.

I don't remember anyone saying that's only a Sith talent... Mace Windu force choked General Greivious, that's where he got his cough... or at least that's what I read...

I believe in Battlefront that it's only available to sith characters, I'll have to check. You know, I knew that about Mace is that from Labyrinth of Evil or from the animated clone wars or perhaps from ROTS commentary?
Also Mace sails a bit close to the Dark side at times too though, doesn't he.

Anyway thanks again.

MTFBWY DD
  Fish1941
date Posted: May 09, 2008 1:33 PM
Also Mace sails a bit close to the Dark side at times too though, doesn't he.


So did the other Jedi . . . including Yoda and Obi-Wan.
GalacticBabe
I Have a Bad Feeling About This!
date Posted: May 09, 2008 4:04 PM
What a great choice for a name! So much better than my suggestion! ;)


Perhaps it was a product of his inexperience. That's what I was going to say.....At that time, Luke really hadn't completed his training with Yoda yet; I'm sure there were some areas he needed a little more work on. Patience and his "recklessness" I'm sure were two big points. He was mostly concerned with saving his friend (in my opinion.)

Great topic, DD! :D
GalacticBabe
I Have a Bad Feeling About This!
date Posted: May 09, 2008 4:08 PM
Cute pics of the Padawans, by the way! :)
Darth_Buir
Together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.
date Posted: May 10, 2008 5:30 PM
What a great choice for a name! So much better than my suggestion!

Thanks, although I'd already had to give the mods some suitable names before I had chance to read your suggestion.

Cute pics of the Padawans, by the way!
The padawans are adorable, btw!

Thanks they must get that from their mum. The pics were taken on our last visit to the U.S. in 2005, we're hoping to take them again next year. Hopefully during one of the SW weekends

  Yodac5
date Posted: Jun 02, 2008 3:12 PM
I agree with cowboy 11c Luke was trying to rescue Han from Jabba and plus he didn't want to kill them so he just knocked them out sort of where as Darth Vader would possibly have killed them because he doesn't care who he harms to complete what the emperor tells him to do.
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