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Look, sir! Zombies!
date posted: Oct 03, 2005 1:57 PM
Big Numbers
Star Wars is the oldest kind of myth. About a boy who learns he has a magical power, and fights to use it for Good.

In myth and story, numbers often mean much more than just "counting." Numbers are important, but they're not always intended to be accurate.

For example, in ancient story-telling, the number 40 often signifies "something beyond counting." That is why the Earth can flood in 40 days (little over a month) and why Ali Baba encounters 40 thieves.

Hercules cleans the Augean stables, which allegedly hold 3000 oxen, and have not been cleaned in 30 years. To do so, he must divert a river. (And in some versions, 2 rivers!)

The hero Beowulf swims for 5 days straight, holds his breath and fights for a full day underwater, and his enemy Grendel can crush a full-grown man in one of his paws.

What are these examples saying?

Myth takes us to a different place, where understanding is not based on fact, but intuition.

Numbers aren't solid anymore. Myth allows us to think beyond the "how" and explore the world of "why": of possibility, of imagination.

If we try and account for the geological reality of Hercules' rivers, or how many thieves really lived with Ali Baba, we're missing the point.

That's why myths and legends (and movies) are not recounted in the harsh light of day-- but rather, in the dancing light of the campfire (or the dark of the matinee). Where all things are possible, all things can be imagined.

And that is why Star Wars begins with a wonderful line, straight from the ancient traditions of story-telling: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

If you ask "how long exactly?", you've missed the point.

But when you close your eyes, and trust in the Force, then you have taken your first step into a much larger world.


:)

  DarthVicomte
Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 2:19 PM
...........I have waited for this blog for a long time..........
  JohnWayneSkywalker
The Purple Ewok
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 2:21 PM
BRAVO SIR, BRAVO!!!!!
  Obi-Tyler
Master Obi-Tyler's Blog Archive.
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 2:57 PM
Sorry I don't quite follow?
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 3:05 PM
Obi-Tyler: >>Sorry I don't quite follow?<<

Uh.... read it again?

  jediknight2210
Where did you dig up that old fossil?
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 3:06 PM
Great blog...this is most impressive.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 3:07 PM
...........I have waited for this blog for a long time..........

Yep- quite surgical, Ryan. :0)

I need a hole right here, Delta
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 3:11 PM
Thanks Moose. :)
  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:08 PM
And what do you say to those who attempt to quantify the large part of the SW universe, and find that it can be done within reason? Admit it, while Star Wars is at it's core a mythic tale, it has expanded to something well beyond that. Governements, species, history, indaviduals, even technology have all been recorded and quantified, and a continuity has been created. To simply say that Star Wars is an alagorical epic and nothing more is a disservice and deteriment to all EU authors past, current, and future who have tried to maintain and build a functioning, believable universe, but also to the fans who enjoy such work.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:16 PM
Ackbar: >>To simply say that Star Wars is an alagorical epic and nothing more<<

Odd. I'm looking for the place in my blog where I said this.
  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:21 PM
And that is why Star Wars begins with a wonderful line, straight from the ancient traditions of story-telling: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

If you ask "how long exactly?", you've missed the point.


What does that mean then? If I can't try and analyize a certain element, then what stops you from saying I can't do it to another, perhaps a more mundane one?
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:26 PM
It's about seeing the forest for the trees.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:29 PM
There are those who debate the given numbers of Star Wars as if they are proveable fact, when really, they're just myth-numbers. They can't be debated, any more than you can debate how long Beowulf held his breath. If the storyteller says it's a day, then he's telling you Beowulf is an incredibly strong hero... not opening the door for a debate on human lung capacity.
  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:50 PM
There are those who debate the given numbers of Star Wars as if they are proveable fact, when really, they're just myth-numbers.

Have you ever even heard of the scientific method? If something can be observed, and at least some of the varibles involved can be quantified and used as a base, then you can build a theory on an object's power, inner workings, etc. Certainly, they can never be proven, but then again, theories never can be.

  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 4:50 PM
They can't be debated, any more than you can debate how long Beowulf held his breath. If the storyteller says it's a day, then he's telling you Beowulf is an incredibly strong hero... not opening the door for a debate on human lung capacity.

Are you saying that if you were to write an EU novel in which you told me that Han Solo could survive having his head cut off, chopped into peices, and incinerated, without any medical attention or surgery, that I am supposed to believe it without question? It may be a fictional universe sir, but it still must conform to its own continuity. And common sense.
  Dylax
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 6:25 PM
They can't be debated, any more than you can debate how long Beowulf held his breath. If the storyteller says it's a day, then he's telling you Beowulf is an incredibly strong hero... not opening the door for a debate on human lung capacity.

Well in the context of the setting and story of beowulf its belevible. But if their was a story that seemed preety realistic and suddenly one normal person killed an entire planet with a gun, then it would seem very out of place, and unrealstic in the context of the story. And thats what you did.
Hope that makes anysense what Im trying to say.
Rainbow Droideka
Aren't you a little short for an egg?
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 7:50 PM
But if their was a story that seemed preety realistic and suddenly one normal person killed an entire planet with a gun, then it would seem very out of place, and unrealstic in the context of the story.

You mean like the Death Star?
  adarjapheth
The Troubles and Travails of the Fan that is -- Me.
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 8:42 PM
Why do people still insist on arguing?? [sigh]

Good blog, well enjoyed, and a good companion to some of what's been going down on Ms. Traviss' blog. Thank you for attempting to keep Star Wars fantasy for us dreamers.
  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 9:27 PM
You mean like the Death Star?

I think that the Death Star was less of a hand gun and more of a Moon-sized battle station. :p
  Diviner525
In the Flesh
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 9:37 PM
Mr Kaufman, this is an interesting blog. I like the stand you take here, you've got bollucks.

But, really, hasn't fiction evolved since "The Arabian Nights" tales. Intelligent readers should ask themselves "Is that possible?" or "Why did that happen?"

We can't ask the audience to believe everything just "because I say so".

D525.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 9:40 PM
The Death Star is a wonderful example of how fantasy and technology merge in Star Wars.

It's less about the science of the Death Star, and what happens when a planet actually get destroyed, and more about what happens when a very few elite get access to an ultimate destructive power.

That's what Star Wars is trying to get us to think about.

RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 03, 2005 9:42 PM
>>We can't ask the audience to believe everything just "because I say so".

True. I would never ask that.
bonniegrrl
Droids Just Wanna Have Fun
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 11:51 AM
great blog... for those of you commenting who'd like to chat about this more once Ryan's comments fill up for this entry, you can do so here:

How long ago? What galaxy? How far?
  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:02 PM

It's less about the science of the Death Star...

From a filmmaking and thematic perspective yes, that is the primary element. However, now that the SW universe has expanded well beyond the films, and the source material has been analyzed to the point where it actually begins to make logical sense, a new, more analytical element can be layered on top of the cinematic theme. Really, that's what makes SW so great; it is both myth, and continuitous "history." Surely combining both elements makes the universe better and more fully realized. To simply disregard or underplay the scientific aspect is silly and demeaning.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:08 PM
The continuity is fascinating, to be sure. And I know, I've been part of it.

But arguing numbers as if there is some realistic and scientific underpinning is silly. It starts arguments about all the wrong things.


The length of Darth Vader's Star Destroyer... I mean, really. ;)

  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:35 PM
But arguing numbers as if there is some realistic and scientific underpinning is silly. It starts arguments about all the wrong things.


The length of Darth Vader's Star Destroyer... I mean, really.


Why is it silly, exactly? I mean, that's percisely what sociologists, technicians, scientists, historians, etc. do to real history and even other literature all of the time. Why Is it silly to give Star Wars the same treatment, especially if so many enjoy doing so? Is it silly because you believe it is fantasy and can't be done (something thar has been definatively proven by the work of Curtis Saxton and others like him) or is it that you simply can't understand why anyone one would care to rationalize a fictional universe?
Pabawan
Fragments from the Mind's Eye
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:35 PM
Here's how I tend to see the passionate arguments of number-crunching tech-minded fans who insist the Star Wars galaxy exists in some kind of definable, objective way,

You can build an incredibly elaborate and intricate house of cards complete with symmetrical wings, swinging doors, a skylight and the illusion of structure. You've done so by being aided and abetted by Lucasfilm, who has published the cards with which you build that house, and provided some clues as to how they should fit....

Pabawan
Fragments from the Mind's Eye
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:35 PM
I can commend you on building that incredibly elaborate house. Of taking the pieces given to you, making them fit, and constructing this impressive monument. I can respect the time, effort, and dedication it has taken to build this house of cards. Bravo! It's fun to look at, and amazing to explore.

But in the end, it is still a house of cards built on a rickety table. When I point that out, I'm not disparaging your card-house building skills nor your dedication to building said card house. What you've done is remarkable

But it's still a house of cards on a rickety table, and I can't help but think it's good to keep that in mind before you start on that next level.

ph
  Ackbar is Back
The Admiral's Holoprojector
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 12:54 PM
Pretty words Pablo. So essentially, your saying that neither the fans nor the more analytically-minded memebers of the LFL staff should really try very hard at maintaining a universe because a large part of the staff won't try very hard to maintain any sort of scientific or logical continuity, simply because they can't be bothered, or they don't believe in such a pursuit. It is obvious now that this view is ingrained throughout your establishment, but nonetheless, those who care will not stop trying, hoping that one day their views will be shared by the makers official universe.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 1:01 PM
Ackbar, you've more than made your point here. It's time to let some others have their say.

Udesii, ner vod.
Pabawan
Fragments from the Mind's Eye
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 1:39 PM
simply because they can't be bothered

There may be something wrong with your browser. It's adding all sorts of words to the text other people write. ;)

ph
bonniegrrl
Droids Just Wanna Have Fun
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 1:40 PM
Ackbar is Back : You're also running a very fine line of flaming. We all get that you have a passion for finding the "reality" in Star Wars, but to insult our authors in a passive-aggressive manner in their own blog comments is not a wise move. I assure you -- as a LFL staff member -- that both we and our authors take scientific or logical continuity seriously whether you believe we do or not. You've made your points (many of them), now move along. And please take this as a friendly warning from an admin.

Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 3:31 PM
I recall driving a Lucas continuity manager mad in April 2004. I kept complaining about silver/ white armour. White armour? Camo, mate. That's what you need! Anyway, this very patient continuity manager taught me one of the most valuable lessons of my writing career; that I should be looking at the underlying stuff and not going all military neepy on him. And it worked. And I didn't have to compromise military authenticity, but I did have to work a bit harder to make it all fit, and out of that I got a far better book.

I think the name was Kaufman. Oddly enough, he's still speaking to me.
  Nex: The T is Hott!!
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 3:33 PM
I assure you -- as a LFL staff member -- that both we and our authors take scientific or logical continuity seriously

I apologize if I'm only fanning the fire, but isn't this very blog we are commenting on saying that science and logic aren't part of the mythical world (which would include Star Wars)? Whether this is the view of LFL or not is irrelevant, I think. Mr. Kaufman's point of view is clear. Again, I'm not trying to be insulting, but that part of your post seems contradictory with the blog. :)
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 5:02 PM
No, it's not contradictory. We do take continuity very seriously. LFL's commitment is obvious-- my bookshelves are filled with examples.

I too take continuity very seriously. I spent a whole year defending and preserving it as Continuity Supervisor at LucasArts.

As I've said before, continuity is wonderful. It enriches the GFFA.

But holy wars over numbers and details distract from the big issues of Star Wars-- the things it can teach us about life and ourselves.

Yoda said "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter." It ain't about the body, it's about the soul.

  Diviner525
In the Flesh
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 7:28 PM
An idea popped into my little droid brain whilst I was driving home from work today. Perhaps the word we search for is balance.

A balance between the mythological/fantasy side of Star Wars and the technical/logistical side of Star Wars - which is what I believe Mr Lucas has accomplished in the movies. We can argue each side as much as we wish, because both are present in the proper amount.

Not too much, not too little -- but juuuuuust right!!

D525.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 7:47 PM
Balance, in my opinion, is very much the correct word, D525. Good call. One can go too far with these things, and one can ignore them too much. Go too far in either direction, you've lost a little of the experience. Moderation is the key ...no trying to be punny :0)
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 12:02 AM
Agreed
  JediMJ23
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 6:40 AM
Ryan, your comments sum up why I enjoy StarWars so much. The fantasy, the myth, call it whatever you like, it's that "certain something" that StarWars has that most others do not. Personally, I don't like sci-fi that much. Never have. But, to me, StarWars isn't just another sci-fi franchise, it's more than that. It's the "2-hour-at-a-time" break that you need to escape your own world and immerse yourself in another...
  JediMJ23
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 6:41 AM
For that 2 hours, you're THERE, you're IN that universe. Don't analyze it and pick it apart with facts and questions that don't (in the big picture) really mean anything. Just sit back, enjoy the ride and come out of the theater (or off the couch) with a great big smile on your face. I know I do every time. In fact, I feel a movie night coming on tonight! ;)
  colorscheme2
The Colorscheme
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 6:49 AM
I suppose no blog will please everyone. Hats off to you, though, for writing what I feel is a simple, eloquent statement. CAN one compare notes and scour the saga for coincidences and inconsistencies? Certainly.

Your post merely asks us all to step back and enjoy it. Let it pour through us as when we were young and we knew that tauntauns truly existed somewhere.

Another message that I feel strongly that echoes your mention of literary classics: Star Wars will be around long after we're gone.
  synth_codius
WOOTINI !!!!!!
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 8:32 AM
Well said Ryan. Cheers to you!:D
  JediMasterXeth
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 2:13 PM
Actually Beowulf swam underwater, but was taken to a battle hall by Grendel's mother. He never actually fought underwater. However, aside from that excellent blog.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 3:00 PM
Not according to my edition. Beowulf spent almost a day underwater, battling the various monsters in the lake. And not only that, he is said to have swam in the sea for five days.

And I'm not sure about the battle hall. Grendel and his mother lived in a rather dank cave.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 3:04 PM
Ah! Now you've tricked me into arguing about Beowulf continuity!

Good one, Xeth. Well-played. ;)

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 3:19 PM
Not according to my edition. Beowulf spent almost a day underwater, battling the various monsters in the lake. And not only that, he is said to have swam in the sea for five days.

Oh now that's just insanity-talk. He'd drown. Hey look - I used a kenning. :0)

(the preceeding message has been brought to you by the Irony Council - Irony: It's not just for plane crashes anymore.)
  R4P17DC
1
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 4:21 PM
So then what is the significance of 1138, 327, 3263827, etc...:O
  JediMasterXeth
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 5:09 PM
lol, I love Beowulf as well. The problem with the story is that theres no official author. It was a spoken story by many scops so theres no official edition. A great story none the less.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 5:14 PM
I see an interesting parallel to Star Wars. Surely George Lucas is the primary author, but there are so many more "authors" adding to the story every day.

There's "no official edition," from a certain point of view.
Darth Vader
Meditation Chamber
date Posted: Oct 05, 2005 6:45 PM
Your blog has reminded me of something I should never forget again: Enjoy the Myth, enjoy the magic, enjoy Star Wars.

Thanks Ryan :)
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 06, 2005 7:28 AM
There's "no official edition," from a certain point of view.

You know, somehow as this is hashed out, I see elements of us all occastionally saying the same thing, on both sides. That's means the ideology may not be so far out of whack, so it's either how far to take it, or how far it's been taken. I still return to D525's idea - Balance. And it's not something so different as it's decribed in the SW universe. Balance was never about numbers there. It was more about equilibrium, harmony.
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