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Jedi Wampa's Playhouse
date posted: Mar 26, 2007 9:16 PM  |  updated: Mar 26, 2007 9:20 PM
Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight? I don't think so...
I'm Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo."

Am I the only one who thinks Luke really WAS having delusions of grandeur, as Han said? Let's look at the points of fact.

Luke Skywalker began his training on Dagobah at the same time Han and Leia went to Cloud City on Bespin. Even if you give leeway, the longest I would say they were on Bespin was a few weeks. Now, I think this is SORTA generous, since the movie seems to imply it was a few hours or days, but that's movies for ya.

Now, if you accept a long stay of even a few weeks on Bespin, then that means Luke was in training for a few weeks, right? So, in Ep I, Obi-Wan is in his twenties, having been trained from the age of around 6 months. Twenty+ years or more and still not a Knight? How could Luke do it in a few weeks?

Ok, next, how about what happened when Luke left Tatooine after saving Han. He went back to Dagobah to keep a promise. That promise was to come back and complete his training. So, if he knew he still had to complete his training, why did he introduce himself as a Jedi Knight? Sure, some of it might have been bravado, but Leia, Chewie, and Lando believed it enough to follow his plan.

Once he got back on Dagobah, he told Yoda he was back to complete his training.

No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.

Luke then asked if he WAS a Jedi, and was told no.

You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.


Toward the end of the film, he announces to Emperor Palpatine that he's "a Jedi, like my father before me." Again, this seems to me nothing more than arrogance. Anakin, even before his fall, worked for more than a decade to achieve the rank of Jedi Knight, and it took a galactic war, with him as one of the legendary leaders, to give him the right to call himself Knight.

I know some of you will point out that Luke wasn't SUPPOSED to be a Jedi for this film until the end. I say that it was still many years (into the EU) before he became a Jedi. In the films, he was a weapon, trained to do what needed to be done. Yes, he has major skills, but there's still a huge difference from a private fresh outta boot and a general, having studied and earned his place as part of the elite. Skywalker was a foot soldier. Well, trained, strong in the Force, but a soldier nonetheless, not the warrior-monk that the Jedi should have been.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts on the subject....

JawaJoey
Return of the Jawa
date Posted: Mar 26, 2007 11:15 PM
About that timescale, you're forgetting the time before Bespin. After Hoth, Luke goes straight to Yoda, and promptly begins his training. (He finds Yoda the day he lands, then begins intensive training the very next day, probably). Meanwhile, the others are hiding in the asteroid field. Being generous again, that could be another week.

That's still a little more than a month, max, though. There's also the preliminary training Luke got from Ben (although that was a few hours, tops), and according to the EU, Luke got some more training from Ghost Ben before ESB.
JawaJoey
Return of the Jawa
date Posted: Mar 26, 2007 11:15 PM
How's that compare? Basic training + natural ability + pre-existing hardening life experiences and maturity + determination + a month's worth of extra-intense personal training by one of the greatest Jedi Masters ever = 1 surprisingly competent Jedi.

Does he deserve the title of Jedi Knight, though? Not quite, but A) desperate times and all that. and B) It isn't intimidating to say "I'm Luke Skywalker, guy who's been doing some Jedi training but still not technically a Knight just yet, and friend of Captain Solo."

And to the Emperor, he doesn't say Knight. Jedi is a philosophy, and applies, from Padawan to Master to blue ghost. He is Jedi, as opposed to Sith, or plain force-sensitive.
jkelly
There Is No Conflict
date Posted: Mar 26, 2007 11:16 PM
Ben was indoctrinating him all the while on Tattooine, too.
nob01
Oil Bath Bubbles
date Posted: Mar 27, 2007 12:21 AM
I do see your point though.
I've always thought Luke achieved Knight status a little quickly - but this was also in the olden days, the days before the Prequels shed more light on the training.
Hey, I'm rambling - it must be late - good to see you around too!!
  Darth tutor
Darth Tutor on a damn fool crusade to get together a real Jedi Order
date Posted: Mar 27, 2007 1:07 AM
Hey Wampa-Jedi,
I fully agree that Luke was no Jedi Knight. Probably not much more than a good Padawan. However, the Force can work through anyone it pleases if he/she only allows it. Probaly Yoda's training was directed foremost to making Luke allow the Force to pass through him. In the end, no matter what you exactly think about Anakin's role as the One: it was the Force that willed to balance the Force.
Anakin was the focus of that effort, Luke was what ignited the final reordering.
Darth_Hiram
A Journey into The Force
date Posted: Mar 27, 2007 3:21 AM
Luke did become a Jedi in ROTJ ... he did exactly that which Yoda said to do ... to face Vader to become a Jedi. And he won.
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Mar 27, 2007 7:51 PM
Hmmmm...since there was no template for how-to-become-a-Jedi-knight by the time Luke got around to it, I guess I just always figured that what Luke experienced didn't HAVE to be like anything the Jedi before him experienced. He was the ONLY Jedi knight at that point...so he could define that hoeever he chose to.

AND it was bravado!

Good to see you!
  iamspoturnot
date Posted: Mar 28, 2007 12:21 PM
the references you make to obi-wans and anakins training was the old jedi order. that order no longer exsisted during the time of luke. yoda and obi-wan didn't have much time to get luke trained so it was a modified/fast pace training. when luke introduces himself as a jedi to jabba i believe this to mostly install fear in jabba. while yes yoda says he will only be a jedi when he faces vader again but i don't believe luke uses the word out of arrogance he uses out of misunderstanding. luke didn't have the advantage of having tons of jedi training him and a jedi temple and all that, that the old order had.
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