Star Wars: Blogs | So be it.... | An observation in the Throne Room

So be it....

by: Darth Rex0

date posted: Nov 16, 2005 2:58 PM | updated: Nov 18, 2005 11:35 AM

An observation in the Throne Room

Let me start by saying how much I have always been a fan of the throne room scene in ROTJ. Its even better now that we have the whole story and all six episodes. There is one thing I am struggling with however and I will try to make this clear as I can.

It seems clear and Lucas has said himself that Vader's obsession in ESB with Luke is for one reason: For Luke to become Vader's Sith apprentice and overthrow the Emporer. It is not until ROTJ that Vader's heart is pulled that this Force capable being is a son that he should love and care about. What didn't make sense to me at first was the changed dialogue in ESB between Vader and the Emporer now makes sense. I love Vader's line "how is that possible" when Palps tells him that Luke is the son of Anakin. Its almost like "Hey dude, you told me I killed her, how did she pop out a kid chief?" The banter between the two Siths is obvious, they are both plotting for Luke to be their apprentice. If you don't agree with me so far, than I'm afraid the rest of the blog won't be much use to you, but please read on.

Now, we come to the throne room in ROTJ. Luke obviously needs to become enraged and act on his hatred which must be in the bloodline. Palps keeps pushing strings that only he can do so well. Finally, Luke gives into his hate and lights his lightsaber to kill the Emporer and WAIT! Vader blocks it. Why? This is exactly what the Emporer wants, a contest to see who the better, stonger Sith will be. Given that I think Vader still wants Luke to help him off the Emporer and make him his Sith apprentice, why block the saber blow on Palps? Lucas has said on the commentary for ROTJ, that Vader is fighting for his existence here. Okay, but why not let Luke off his boss? Luke will be enraged and killed in cold blood, and anger and all those other Sith attributes. My point is after he killed the Emporer, Vader would have Luke right where he wants him. He could have said "Your hate made you powerful and you offed a pretty bad dude, now son be my main man at my side and lets rule this spirally galaxy" (or something like that). And Luke MIGHT say, I commit myself to your teachings" and Vader might say "from now on your are Darth blah blah......." You get the picture. Instead, Vader blocks the blow. Now, I have an esteemed friend that I disagree with that says Luke was aiming at Vader. Huh? I don't see that, but it would make this blog pointless (is it already?)

So, why does Vader do that? I recently read a blog (forgive me for not remembering who the author was) that said Vader blocked it out of love for his son because he didn't want him going to the Dark Side. Interesting point, but why would Vader start pulling all the strings later (fighting him, trying to make him angry). I guess you could say it was obediance to the Emporer, but remember Vader is trying to get rid of that guy, so I don't buy that argument. Maybe, the Emporer wouldn't have died and both Vader and Palps knew this. I guess if that were true, Vader's cover would have been blown and Palps might off HIM. I'm not sure at all.

I really don't have an answer. It obviously makes for a better scene that he blocks Lukes blow, but I can't figure out why. Instinct maybe? I don't know. This may not be an issue that some of you even care about, but its my blog, so there. Seriously, I love everyone's knowledge on this site and different perspectives. Happy blogging and keep the peace my friends.

http://blogs.starwars.com/accordingtodarthrex0/13

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	AT-AT Pilot #628
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:09 PM sorry nobody has responded to ur blog...but i agree with you99.99%. Although since anakin has that issue with love for people and dosent like to kill anyone, he still killed ohh palps in the end?

	illegal_sith91
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:16 PM I always thought Vader blocked Luke from Palps cuz he knew that Luke was no match for him, and that palps would kill him in mere seconds. So he distracted Palps by crossing blades with Luke to keep him from getting killed. Just a thought. Nice blog Darth Rex0

crazymyrs
ET in Episode 1

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:17 PM

I think Vader did this because he wasn't sure what to do, especially because he would have to decide quickly. Knowing this, he could save his son who he loved, or side with the peson who he stood by for the last twenty some years. So he chose to fight Luke. So by blocking Luke he would buy more time to figure out what to do. The Emperor most likely knew Vader had lots of conflct over who he should side with and knew Vader would block Luke's blow and would fight. So the Emperor just sat back and watch the two fight while he laughed.

	Darth Rex0 So be it....
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:32 PM AT-AT Pilot #628, no worries, I just posted this blog about five minutes ago, you were just quick to the draw. crazymrs, you may be on to something here. Luke even mentions how much conflict Vader is having and Vader's inability to decide may have something to do with it; trying to buy more time.

Darth-Razik

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:38 PM

Great blog,

I believe he blocks because he is in alot of conflict, ever since vader even discovered his son lived im sure things have been going through his mind, possibly thoughts that had not crossed his mind for some time

Its after his conversation with luke before being taken to the death star i think there is alot of conflict in vader, he may not have even remembered his name up until not so long ago, who he used to be, before he became a pawn of the emperor, luke starts prodding feelings just the same as the empeor does to luke

But though still corrupted with the darkside, he must deliver luke to the emperor

Darth-Razik

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:40 PM

Now the conflict of the block,

I think vader blocks for a number of reasons,
a) because if luke did strike him down he would stare down the same path vader walked
b) this relates to the above, luke may not accept to be darth vaders apprentice, but surpass him
c) he is also still loyal to the emperor despite the conflict within him
d) possibly consider some other options

again great blog

Frostor

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:58 PM

I mostly agree with Darth-Razik on this one. Vader was Palpatine's slave, and his blocking was almost, well, robotic. It was reflex out of his years of loyalty, even if he did hate Palpatine. Also, I think that, in line with Darth-Razik's point B, Vader feared Luke. If he struck down the Emperor, why wouldn't Vader be next? After all, Luke does show himself capable of this later on. He may also have felt that this was "not the right time," and that Palpatine would just, I dunno, Force push Luke away or something if he didn't block the blade.

DarkSider66

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 4:22 PM

Hmmm... that's a good point, Darth Rex0...

Maybe Vader wanted to finish off the Emperor for himself? He ended up doing just that anyways, but that was out of love for his son. But Frostor and Darth-Razik have a point about the "instinctive reaction" of blocking. And Luke might have killed Vader next, too. Good point, guys.

_______________________________________________
Feel the wrath of DarkSider66! I said FEEL THE WRATH!!!

DarkSider66

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 4:25 PM

DarthObi-Wan: I think Vader could have turned Luke into a Sith by himself possibly, since he is theoritically (please excuse my spelling) stronger than the Emperor, but then again, that's as far as fighting. If u don't agree with me, then watch ROTS. It sorta explains my point there, but u do have a point about the whole thing...

_______________________________________________
Feel the wrath of DarkSider66! I said FEEL THE WRATH!!!

	Darth Rex0 So be it....
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 4:29 PM You all have a great points, especially about Vader being fearful of both the emporer and Luke. Like I said, I love this community on this site (most of the time) you get to really bump ideas off people and everyone has given some good ideas and something for me to think about.

crazymyrs
ET in Episode 1

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 4:54 PM

Good Blog

Vader probably had tons of things going through his head, most likely more than anyone else. Like I said before, I think Vader needed to buy some time. Especially since he and the Emperor have been buddies since the Old Republic days, and Luke was his only family left (including Leia).So Vader was being emotionaly torn apart inside, because of the conflict.

Just think though, Vader has gone through a lot. He lost his mother, his wife, and everything else he loved, and now he had a chance to save his son. Along with that he also just couldn't let Palpatine die, since he and Palpatine were best of freinds, or so Vader thinks.

	Darth Kevinmhk
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:13 PM if my memory serve me right, according to ROTJ novel, Vader thought the time was not right yet. Vader had to fully draw out Luke's anger / hatred and aggression, turn Luke fully to the dark side, then they can kill the Emperor together

	DarthObi-Wan **
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:59 PM Yes Darth Kevinmhk

	-jaster mareel- Mandolorian Knight
date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 7:57 PM there isnt much to add but he felt loyalty to palpy and the conflict within himslef was his loyalty to palpy and the new jedi which was his son there isnt to much to add

Grand Admiral Veers0

date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 10:39 PM

The scene in the Throne Room is great because each of them has there own plans, their own ideas of how to win this. Vader was being pulled between the love that he had for Padme (now personified in Luke), his loyalty to Palpy (which was surprisingly a lot) as well as is own Sithly ambition. Vader blocked Luke because with Palpy dead that would be it. He needed more time to work things out so he knows what to do. He became a planner, just like his master

So be it... Jedi
Emperor, Return of the Jedi

	sithhappens! sithhappens! diary
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:45 AM Because if Luke kills the Emperor, Vader would be alone against Luke - and Luke, by now, is far more powerful than Vader. Vader needs to turn Luke to the Dark Side first - so they can overthrow the Emperor together. That way Luke would be his apprentice rather than his victorious enemy!

Sol Kassar
Ramblings from the Detention Center (Startled)

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:44 AM

I think he blocked Luke's blow just out of loyalty to Palpatine. Loyalty will make you do crazy things, especially for a desparate guy like Vader - rememeber when he saved Obi-Wan in a similar fashion against Tyranus in Episode II? He was loyal and desparate then and it cost him a limb. He wanted to help his son, but not like that, not by watching him fall to the Dark side. Vader's use of Leia against Luke might have been his way of getting Luke to use his full potential and a great, albeit twisted, way of getting Luke to control his anger, which he ultimately did.

	darth superious
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 3:01 PM I think at that point Vader was starting to come back to the good side, or at least he was giving it serious consideration. I think he did it more to save Luke than to save Sidious. Besides maybe Anakin wanted the honor of killing Sidious, with the prophecy and all!

Mindless Mandalorian

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:04 PM

Perhaps Luke attacked Vader as a way out. Had Luke even attempted to kill Palpatine in rage he would have comitted himself to the dark side, and Luke, knowing he would soon follow through with what his anger told him to do, decided to attack Vader instead. The only way to know if he was going after Vader for sure would be to see which way Luke was swinging, if Luke's saber was the one closer to the Emperor, then we can tell he was not attacking him, but if it was ####her then Vader could very well have been defending him, though we can't be sure. Though I haven't watched ROTJ recently, an error I will soon rectify, I believe Luke was swinging away from the emperor, meaning he must have been attacking vader.

	Mindless Mandalorian
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:09 PM Ok it won't let me say that despite its lack of profanity, the definition for the word is a greater distance from, or the opposite of closer.

youngskywalker03
The mystery of Kreia...mastermind of KOTOR...

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:36 PM

I have always thought, even way before the prequles and GL telling us about Vader's plans to use Luke against the Emporer, that Vader gave up on the idea after he failed to do it in ESB. Remeber when Luke and Vader are on Endor: "The Emporer will show you the true nature of the force. He is your master now." If he really wanted Luke to kill The Emporer for him, it would have came out in that sceen, the one sceen they are alone together. Maybe it's a bit of both, that he wanted to wait until Luke was on the Darkside for him to go after Palpatine. But I always thought Vader gave up on it, hence he defened his master..."You don't know the power of the darkside. I must obey my master."

Jedimaster F

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:42 PM

I think if vader had not block the attack, the emperor would have:

stopped the attack with his own lightsaber, killed vader for not protecting him and turned luke to the dark side. Vader wanted luke for himself. and the emperor would have easily killed vader. again with vader wanting to protect his son, i dont think vader finally and fully turned back to the light until he threw Darth sidious from the bridge into the death stars core.

ObiYodachica

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:43 PM

I like the points you are all making but i still think that Luke goes after Vader and not Palpy. If you look really close at the lightsabers, you can see that the green one(Luke's) is going after Vaders red one and not toward the Palpy. I don't know there are so many different theories that it is hard to tell which one is true. Thanks for all the new ideas though!

youngskywalker03
The mystery of Kreia...mastermind of KOTOR...

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 5:55 PM

"I must obey my master" if he was really trying to get Luke to kill his master, he wouldn't have been feeling that. I always though that line was Vader showing the "conflict" in Vader that Luke talks about he means "No, you don't get it son, I CAN'T go back to the light, I MUST obey him." I think Vader was having a ton of conflcting emotions as he was slowly on his way back to the light side, just as Anakin was feeling so many conflicting emotions as he was turning to the darkside. The loyalty to being a sith (not necisarily to Palpatine) but being a user of the darkside, to his new found love of his son. So, he blocked Luke's saber, but probably regretted it right after just as he did when he cut off Mace's hand

	yodascholar
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 6:28 PM Luke did'nt want to kill Vader, he was trying to save him from the dark side, cause we all now Luke was raised always wanting to know his family, his father and mother. So maybe Luke lost the faith in Vader, about triying to pull it out from the Dark Side, but even with that is foolish to think that he's attacking Vader, he knew Sidious was the real enemy.

	yodascholar
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 6:29 PM and another thing, I think Sidious mentaly ordered Vader to block the attack!!!

	yodascholar
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 6:31 PM like he the mental order he gave to Mara Jade at the moment he was falling through the reactor: "You will kill Skywalker" (forgive if I didn't write it exactly)

ObiYodachica

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 6:37 PM

well i still think that Luke went for Vader but not to kill him. He thought that if he fought him he wouldn't give into the dark side and that Luke may be able to turn Vader back to the good side by showing if that he was a jedi by fighting cause if he killed Sidious then Vader would say that he had given into the dark side but he knew he wasn't really going to kill Vader he only was stalling to think and he couldn't take watching the battle anymore. It's only a theory but that is always what i have thought and it seemed to fit. Thanks for the idea tho yodascholar.

yodascholar

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 6:53 PM

well, also I have another theory, What if Luke did really wanted to attack Vader? well, in that case Luke might wanted to return Vader to the light side through the fight, trying tu pull Anakin from Vader, that way, if he suceeded, then both could take Darth Sidious. Cause Luke knew he wasn't a full Jedi Master, and taking by himself the extremely powerfull Sith Master was going to be very hard.

Diviner525
In the Flesh

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:26 PM

Seems like Vader still needs Palpatine in order to fully turn Luke to the Dark Side, so he can't allow Luke to kill Palpatine just yet. Luke has continually resisted turning to the Dark Side, and Vader might realize that Luke may never turn - and he may have to destroy Luke.

So I think that at that moment Vader is still serving Palpatine, his Master, but also Vader has his own ideas about how to overthrow Palpatine - which seems to be the Sith way. As Vader said before, he and Luke could overthrow Palpatine together, and rule the Galaxy as father and son.

D525.

	GNX666
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:46 PM What about the PROPHECY and Anakin being the chosen one? It was said that he was to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force. Therefore I believe that Vader was beginning to fulfill Anakin's destiny by stepping in and saving Palp, and then later completing his destiny by killing Palp and himself (hence destroying the Sith).

jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 9:14 PM

Great Blog.

First of all, Palaptine would have died if Vader had not stopped him. But Palpatine knew Vader would do it just liek he knew Anakin would be in time to save him from Mace. He forsaw everything except Vader's final act of selfless that fullfil the profecy and destroyed the Sith. But that doesnst explain why Vader did it.

I see 2 reasons:

1) The act was a dual manifestation of the conflict that stirred within him. He blocked both to protect Luke from Evil Path and to protect his master (even though he wished he would die to be the Dark Lord of the Sith at the same time because he needed Palpatine which brings me to the second reasons

jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 9:14 PM

2) Vader needed Sidious to live. The only reason he was alive was because he was strong in the Dark Side and it gave him power. Much like it gave Dooku strengh at 90 as opposed to Obi-wan at 50's as seen in Episode IV. But the Dark side was controlled by Sidious, the current Dark Lord of the Sith. Limiting his possibilities. But beyond that, I believe Sidious learned everything from Plageas, including the power to preserve life. He lied to Vader to manipulate him as he does better than anyone. In the end of EP3 he restores Vader's life and I believe from that point on Vader's life is linked to Sidious power.

	jbl_usa Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 9:14 PM Thus Sidious protected himself from the Way of the Sith. That is why Vader said no one could stop his death after he killed Palpatine and why he could not disobey his Master before. Hence he defended his own life when he defended Sidious

	weardowjedi
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 9:16 PM You know what i think about the whole "Luke goes for Vader thing"? he does it because its hard to get swod fighting right all the time, and mark hamill might not have been the best swordsman in the world. sorry, but i think you guys might just be looking too hard for reasons. i agree with one of darth rexo's points, it was just instinct.

	weardowjedi
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 9:33 PM also, i agree with yoda scholar, about the whole mental order thing. he says i must obey my master, and like you said, he gave the mental order to mara, so maybe he gives them to vader alot.

	Master Thranduil Feel don't think, use your instincts
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 9:57 PM I believe Darth Vader blocked Luke's lightsaber blow because Palp is Vader's master and he must protect him also the Sith rule is if you kill the Dark Lord Of The Sith then you automatically become the Sith Lord even if your a jedi but Vader knew he couldn't do it so he killed Palp by throwing him down a hole even though he risked his own life

Im_A_JediSurvivor
"Shev'la Jetii Cuyan Morut'yc Lo Prudii"

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 10:03 PM

thankfully, jbl_usa brought up that point about Sidious sustaining Vader's life - as I was reading along all of the theories, that was gonna be my post as well - if Luke killed the Emperor then Vader would die almost immediately and not allow for the prophecy to be fulfilled - I think that also the conflict mention was part of it as well - Vader (Anakin) may

>>

Im_A_JediSurvivor
"Shev'la Jetii Cuyan Morut'yc Lo Prudii"

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 10:03 PM

have been protecting Luke from Sidious by fighting him himself and contemplating the outcome as he fought until the straw that broke the Bantha's back : when Palps almost killed Luke -
Another Great Blog Darth Rex0 - keeps us on our toes and you write & think well
----I keep telling you though...it's E-M-P-E-R-O-R (spelled correct)
now u have other people spellin' it like you : ?emporer?

Quinlan Lives

	skydreamer68 Vader's Obesssion With Capturing Luke in ESB
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 10:04 PM I think Vader blocked Luke for a couple of reasons: 1. His conflicting emotions due to his loyalty to Palpatine vs. His love for his and Padme's only son. 2. I think Vader knew that even though Luke's powers had grown he believed that Luke wasn't ready to fully take on Palpatine and feared that Palpatine would kill his son. Just my ,02 cents worth

	Armanus, Dark Lord of the Sith Putting All the Pieces Together
date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 10:10 PM Vader needed a full commitment from Luke. It wasn't enough to just strike out; he had to fully surrender to his hatred. Vader blocked the strike because he knew this, and he knew it would make Luke even angrier. Then, he would push Luke's buttons to get him even more angry, with the added bonus of Palpatine's continued assistance.

Armanus, Dark Lord of the Sith
Putting All the Pieces Together

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 10:10 PM

Vader knew that he needed Luke to make the same committment that he did. A complete turn with no turning back. Unfortunately, Vader pushed the right button to put Luke over the edge, and was defeated. It was Luke's love for his father that prevented Luke from killing him, and it was this love that made Vader realize what he had become. When he sees Palps killing him, he realizes that Palps is the true evil, and Luke is the only being who truly loves him, and makes the final choice, fulfilling the prophesy. See?

Armanus, Dark Lord of the Sith
Putting All the Pieces Together

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 10:11 PM

Darius, Lord Of The Sith
Thoughts From Darius

date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 11:16 PM

I think that Vader, despite some obvious hatred for Palpatine, still looks at him as a father figure at the end of ROTJ. We know that he wants to overthrow him, but over the course of 20 years, he has become dependent on him. He could have let Luke kill Palpatine, but he was probably scared to it for many reasons. That's what makes the fact that he does save Luke at the end so special. He puts aside his fears and personal desires and does it, not for personal gain, but to save his son. He sees his son stand up to Palpatine and gains the courage to do the same. That's how Luke redeems him. By making the choice that Anakin could not, he shows his father what the right path is.

Animaniac24
Galactic Musings

date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 1:02 AM

It says in the novel that at that point Vader thought there was still a chance that even having killed the Emperor in cold blood, that he would reject the Sith teachings and return to his friends, so Vader had to prevent Luke killing the Emperor until he was emotionally ready for it.

But yeah, that's what the novel says, but remember it was written before the PT and some of the stuff in it is disproven or proved questionable by not only the new movies, but the more recent EU publishings. Only the ESB novel still holds up 100% in my opinion, though that isnt to say the other two don't, there's just a few points... (off topic).

A24

vaderrules05

date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 1:39 AM

I believe Vader had major conflict going on with him when he was on Endor with Luke. Saying "it is to late for me my son". I had heard from somewhere that Vader was not able to kill Palp after he blew his chance in ROTS. Once he found out he was the Sith Lord they were looking for he could of struck him down then and become the most powerful there was. Yet he did not and lost his chance thus becoming a slave to Palp. Not sure how much merit that has.
Couple of questions in regards to the final lightsaber duel... Why does Luke repeatedly strike Vaders lightsaber after has fallen? And then why does he look at his fathers missing hand and then his own when the Emperor approaches them? Is it him realizing what he almost became?

Kataar
Read, Write, Watch, Enjoy!

date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 7:34 AM

I agree with some of the comments already posted here. I believe we're not seeing a massive struggle on Anakin's face in this final scene. In fact it's possible the struggle is three-fold. He wants to prevent Luke from following his path, he has a strong desire to have his son rule the galaxy and kill the Emperor, and he also feels he must follow his all-too-powerful master. Though there's no telling what all he felt and when, it's possible that he prevented Luke from killing his master for two of those three, or either one of those two: loyalty to Emperor, compassion for his son. And the cycle continues until he makes his final decision.

R.J.Fett

date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 7:46 AM

I think Darius Lord of the Sith had it right on the money with the fact the Vader sees Luke do what he couldn't( stand up to Palps and reject him)that it gives Vader strength and plus the fact that with this final link to his love for Padme(not including Leia) Luke being killed before his eyes by the person he's worshipped to all these years (the person who told him the love of his life was dead,along with there unborn child)he had to do what he did to Palpy and make it all right,and to make up for his guilt for for not really making sure and finding out if Padme had really died as he did he went to find the other love in his life,his mother.

R2 - D5
See through you, we caaaaaaan !!!

date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 8:47 AM

Both Vader and Luke knew they would duel again... Luke was trying to avoid it, he did say it to Obi Wan. When he powered his saber he knew there wasn't any other way to solve the conflict. Die watching his friends dying or die trying to do something. I think Vader was committed to stop Luke due to his servant loyalty to the emperor.
When Luke react to protect Leia, turning momentarily to the dark side and stteping back of it a moment later, Vader realized that his son would do what he colud not. Sacrifice himself to protect and save others.
At the end, it was exaclty what Vader did, he knew that he would die trying to save his only son from the emperor.

	SpiraMatur
date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 9:18 AM I think the Emporer told Vader to Deep Woods Off his son, and this offended him greatly. But he couldn't bring himself to Deep Woods Off the Emporer either due to loyalty or what-have-you. So the only real thing he could do, other than Deep Woods Off-ing someone, was block Luke's saber blow to the Emporer.

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