But it was "liberty" not democracy (even though I swear I saw both ways in theaters)

You're right, jk! It's late; I'm just getting sloppy.

But am I? There was a big to do about it in the EIII forum soon after ROTS was released in theaters. (I tried to find the thread but couldnt). I indeed thought I heard "democracy" the first time(s), as many others did. But later viewings of the film in theaters confirmed that it was 'democracy'. Maybe it was changed. Not to sound like a conspirator, but maybe George or Rick saw the meaning of the word 'democracy' to have been too loaded. Just a thought.

Would it take a ton of space to copy and paste the original blog here

By "clones" do you mean, Clone Troopers and such only? Or do you mean clones in general?

Hm.... Missed the entry when it was intially posted.

No citizen is asked, offered, or accepted to participate in the galactic defense, alongside these heroes, despite their very lives being on the line.

I realize that it wasn't the intent of the entry, but this paints Palpatine in a rather benevolent light... Since there was no real galactic defense to speak of

Palpatine: Not Wasting Citizen's Lives for a Safe and Secure Society

Dude, great blog. I personally think if clones were pitted against Jedi, the clones would win. You should do a blog called SVS: Sith versus Stormtrooper.

I know this wasn't the piont of the blog, I'm just answering the title only.

However, I take issue with the CIS and their 'concern' for society. I thought it to be a purely 'profit' driven machine, whose sole purpose for defecting was to make more money for itself at the expense of those who didn't know better or couldn't keep up. If they were concerned for justice, it was only in relation to how much money they could make, not how their citizens, and the galaxy, might actually benefit from it.
The rich business men who were the CIS coucil had no real power; they were just there to provide funding. It was Dooku who was leading that show, and in the ROTS novel it is stated that he genuinely wants a better alternative to the Republic.

And the Republic didn't have much care for society either for that matter. Thanks to them thousands of Kaleesh on Kalee starved and died, they completely ignored Jabiim and Naboo, before Palps came along nearly all the senators were concerned only with making themselves richer.
And if you don't believe me in the case that the CIS council had no power, read the ROTS novel in which Grievous completely ignores Gunray's demands. And even if they did have power, they would probably have some else do the ruling for them as they were most likely rubbish at the ruling-the-galaxy business.

On a different topic, I like the way your previous entry further reveals the intricatcies of Sidious's plan. With the Clone Wars, he weaked the Jedi, weaked the galaxy for the rise of the Empire, beefed up his clones for the Empire, weaked and eventually destroyed any big corporations that might offer resistance, and had an excuse to mass-produce tons of military hardware for the Empire. You've opened my eyes to just how complex it was.

Palpatine: Not Wasting Citizen's Lives for a Safe and Secure Society
I realize this is pure opinion, but what you call benevolence, I call preying on people's fear. I understand the fear of fighting and the suffering that will result (it's what delayed my entry into the military), however I think it's a citizen's duty to defend their nation despite this. How can you lay claim to the liberties and values you hold dear, if you aren't even will to defend them? And if you aren't willing to defend them, can't they be taken away from you? Just my thought.

It was Dooku who was leading that show, and in the ROTS novel it is stated that he genuinely wants a better alternative to the Republic.
This is where perception and reality clash. Dooku may have been on the side of 'right' in his mind, but that's not how his actions were being perceived. Dooku is a mass of contradictions to make matters worse. He's a Sith but believes Society will benefit despite the Sith's history. I find Dooku to be just as wanting of direction as Anakin. Unfortunately, he held neither the skill nor the promise of Anakin, and was discarded as Maul was as just another casualty of Palpatine's rise. Dooku was an excellent puppet.

An excellent puppet, and nothing more, you're right. However, I take another angle of the issue you brought up earlier: that of the citizens of the republic having no role in it's defense. My point is that this is the ultimate destiney of any society that insulates and babies its citizens from the rigors of life. By making them both totally reliant on the government, and yet totally isolating them from it, it ensured the rise of the empire, or any other dictatorship.

Holy cow, I leave early on a Friday and look what happens.

Listen hear clone hater (sarcastic folks), I actually love the way you spilled it out here. I always had a problem with the easiness of the Jedi's fight back with the clones and you have a problem with the easiness of Order 66. Your blog explains both our points. There couldn't have been that much "brotherness" among the clones and Jedi. Sure, there were a few, but other wise they wouldn't have followed the order. To quote Robert Gould Shaw in the movie Glory, "It is an immoral order and under the articles of war, I am not bound to obey it".

By making them both totally reliant on the government, and yet totally isolating them from it, it ensured the rise of the empire, or any other dictatorship.
I don't disagree at all. Thanks!

Most countries have that kind of setup with order structure and we can safely assume the Clones and the "civilized" Republic would have too. I think Tilrem mentioned the Hitler example which I still think applies Stooge, but not with the Jews. I look at the whole country's mindset after WW I. The Germans were humiliated. They weren't allowed to have an Army. These are very proud people. Hitler was very good at using the "pride and prejudices of the" people to a rise in power. There was so much momentum and pride swelling that most Germans didn't even ask if it was right to invade France or Poland. It was their right as Hitler told them.

Very similar to SW except the Republic is on the defense, but we all know the war was a distraction. As K-f has said, that was only known to two people probably.

*stands up and applauds*

Great blog and do you have any idea how hard it is to concentrate like this when you have strep throat?

Sure, there were a few, but other wise they wouldn't have followed the order.
So, were the clones under order not to fraternize with the Jedi? If so, the Jedi should have questioned this, as should have the Clones, unless they were simply incapable of this (which I find strange since they could be sympathetic to their genetic twin but not to others...how do you program that entirely?).

"It is an immoral order and under the articles of war, I am not bound to obey it".
Good movie...nice quote. IMO, it's the humanity we show in times of war that makes the largest statement about what are real values are in a society.

Great blog and do you have any idea how hard it is to concentrate like this when you have strep throat?
So sorry, dude. You're doing a great job though...ha!

So, were the clones under order not to fraternize with the Jedi?

Well, reading the books (that you won't ) you get the picture that the clones don't know how to fraternize with anyone but themselves. Like I said, it happens, but not often. The Jedi are also partly to blame. Wouldn't you want to know who you are fighting with? Ask most veterans and their favorite parts about the Army was the camraderie. There is such a special bond that develops between people when you go through something horrible together. Why didn't the Jedi pursue this? The clones hadn't been around anyone but themselves, so I don't put all the blame on them.

What in the name of crap are you doing posting on a Saturday? Shouldn't you be at a Cubs game or working in the yard? Some of us have to work, but I would add you are making my time here fly by. Thanks.

What in the name of crap are you doing posting on a Saturday?
1st, the original blog was posted on a Friday. 2nd, I was up late on Friday and saw that the original blog had filled so I thought I'd post a 2nd. As for weekend chores, I'll be starting them momentarily.... Your comments about the comaraderie in the Army is spot on. What's so amazing about the Jedi and Clones, is unlike a traditional military coup where the army assumes control of society, this coup resulted in the army turning on itself, before turning on society.

this coup resulted in the army turning on itself, before turning on society.

That might be where my gut just doesn't buy it. History has proven that and Army can split and follow two seperate leaders, but turn on itself? It still doesn't make sense. What do I know though? I'm just a simple man trying to make his way in the universe.

I came off strong on the Saturday thing. Sorry, I was trying to make a joke that came off harsh. Don't quit me!

Hello there

By making them both totally reliant on the government, and yet totally isolating them from it, it ensured the rise of the empire, or any other dictatorship.

This is a great point, but we still cant play into the overall condition of the galactic population in SW. Were they really so complacent? Maybe the issue of such a grand scale, a whole galaxy, in which to govern over was an issue too. When I look at the trickling effects on globalization on our one small world, I cant image the difficulty in running a whole galaxy.

When I look at the trickling effects on globalization on our one small world, I cant image the difficulty in running a whole galaxy.

I really didn't have much to add jk, I just wanted an excuse to use this:

It is an immoral order and under the articles of war, I am not bound to obey it

it's the humanity we show in times of war that makes the largest statement about what are real values are in a society

This brings up a few other points in the fictional world of SW. The quickness in which O66 was carried out (and pre-calculated), and that it was at the climax of battle. Add a little Dark Side Force mojo to that, and last but not least the question of how "programmed" the clones were to resist innate human nature. How human were the clones? A few maybe more than the rest. How much can human nature be programmed/controlled?

Nice Rex0

... anyway, my point being the element of suprise to the Jedi (above)

you get the picture that the clones don't know how to fraternize with anyone but themselves.

That ties it in nicely. maybe technology can't control the clones so much as conditioning can work wonders.

this coup resulted in the army turning on itself, before turning on society.

That might be where my gut just doesn't buy it. History has proven that and Army can split and follow two seperate leaders, but turn on itself?

I think you guys are saying the same thing here really. And it was Palpatine that did the turning.

maybe technology can't control the clones so much as conditioning can work wonders.

Great point there and it adds to your point of throwing in some DS mind control stuff (sorry for the technical jargon ). Yeah, K-f and I were saying the same thing. I just have a hard time buying it is all, but we are working on explaining that.

And just because its still funny to me....

I'm late to the game, K-fan...sorry. I'm commenting on Blog JVC #1 here before reading comments...

Manipulation is a tough thing. One can say how they'll react in any given situation; they can even be damned sure that they know exactly how they'd act. Not only were the Clones and the Jedi in a situation which, certainly, the Jedi didn't anitcipate, but also, all parties involved were being manipulated. Badly (or well, depending upon your POV).

While I see where you're coming from, I think you're being too hard on them.

Have to read the comments and keep thinking about it...

Notice everyone that thinks they are serving a higher purpose loses, and the one that wins is serving only himself.

Quite depressing thought, DVicomte!

Heh heh - I just checked JMP's blog to see if you were joking about what I thought Rex0. That yodacon is creeping me out man!

I just have a hard time buying it is all, but we are working on explaining that.

Buying what exactly? That the clones were less likely to question authority than a real life army? Or that the Jedi werent any better than the clones as far as being blind followers?

Sadly, when we turn our minds over to someone else, it frequently doesn't turn out very well.

I couldn't agree with you more, K-fan. I do not, however, agree with this...

I won't play 'what-if' and simply say the Jedi decided to do things that clearly made them nervous, which should have given them pause...it didn't.

But it did...By Mace Windu's stating "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers," in AOTC, it is clear that the Jedi want no part of a military struggle. Aside from OB1's naive comment at the end of AOTC that without the clones, the (good side) would not have won, I can't think of another Jedi who seemed OK with the conflict.

Buying what exactly?

That someone you've fought next to for three years is suddenly your enemy and you should kill them. That in a nutshell. Speaking of nutshells....




Okay, that was uncalled for. Sorry.

Like the clones answered to their maker (literally), the Jedi also answered to a higher power: their council. Their mistake, as an order, was listening to themselves and not to the REAL higher power...a mistake we ALL make.

I have a feeling I'm rehashing stuff that either has been said, or will be said (I'm not caught up yet). SORRY!

Don't be embarrassed -- after all, everyone on this blog is probably too young to remember any of World War II,

FINALLY...something around here even *I* am too young for...

I think I've missed one of your main points, K-fan, the fact that both the clones and the Jedi were completely out of touch with the people. Again, I see your point, but I have to disagree, at least about the Jedi. The clones were MADE to fight. They were RAISED to make war, not peace. I'd even go so far as to say that being social wasn't part of their upbringing, or even their genes. Sure Jango and son were socially inept, at best. (more...)

But the Jedi...picture little Ani dreaming of being a Jedi one day! The Jedi made a good impression upon him. And then there's the early part of the ROTS novelization that someone else mentioned, images of kids playing hero.

Are our real-life "heroes" today any more in touch with "us?" Is that even possible?

That someone you've fought next to for three years is suddenly your enemy and you should kill them. That in a nutshell.

Got it. It is hard to fathom. Thats another leap of faith from what we see in the real word that we have to make for the magical world of SW. But is it really so different? I look at 19th century colonialism in Africa (for example) and the pitting of factions against each other on their own native soil. Aside from cloning technology and Dark Side voodoo (which is just "evil" anyway), its not a completely fictional idea.

its not a completely fictional idea.

True to a certain point. The factions had something to gain in that example. What did the clones have to gain by killing the Jedi?

Hello..o..o..o..o..o..o....

I guess everyone left!!!

Really great blog entry, K-fan...

The factions had something to gain in that example.

Maybe some had something to gain in the name of independence, but others were simply fighting for the the government in power, as were the clones. Taking orders from the top. Back to the Jedi... what did they have to gain by fighting with the clones (pre-O66) against the Seperatists? I dont think they were doing it for any reason except for the greater good of the Republic, and we all know it was really the Rep (i.e. Palps) that turned on the Jedi.

OK...nevermind. That cahing thing, you know...

My two cents...the fact that half of the Republic's army, the clones, was able to turn on itself, is further proof of the clones INhumanity. With most humans, there would be exceptions who could easily turn on a dime and assisinate their brothers, but the vast majority couldn't do it.

Or maybe I'm being too optimistic today. Now THAT's rare...

There were some sociological experiments in Kansas City wherein the presence of extra police led the citizens to believe crime was high due to the police presence.
Interesting...but isn't this only a perception?

Yeah, that's the point. Trust is about perception. Whether your perception is accurate is a whole other story. Personally, I hate to see law enforcement in my neighborhood, because they only come by when something is up. On the other hand, I don't mind seeing the military doing their job or around the neighborhood.

Maybe there is something here. "Keepers of the Peace" show up when there is unrest, but the clones are good "poster boys" for the front line and the citizenry respected that more.

A 'continuation blog'!?

Kenobi-fan, I thought you were better than that............I'm ashamed........

Kenobi-fan, I thought you were better than that............I'm ashamed........
It could be worse I suppose....I could be running for Fan Club President. Ha!

I could be running for Fan Club President. Ha!

Hell, I'd vote for you...

"Sure, there were a few, but other wise they wouldn't have followed the order.
So, were the clones under order not to fraternize with the Jedi? If so, the Jedi should have questioned this, as should have the Clones, unless they were simply incapable of this (which I find strange since they could be sympathetic to their genetic twin but not to others...how do you program that entirely?)."

I think the point is, Every Clone is aware that there is an order 66. Maybe they chose not to fraternize with the Jedi just in case they ever had to obey it.
If you knew that there is a chance that you might have to kill someone at some point in the future, you are not likely to befriend them and become attached.

The clones were MADE to fight. They were RAISED to make war, not peace.
If that's true, then the Senate should have been aware of this. If you knew you had a group of intelligent beings whose sole purpose was to kill and destroy, what's your plan when 'peace' is achieved? How do you dispatch such an group? Do you execute them all or do you allow them to keep waging war (and where and on whom)???

The Jedi made a good impression upon him.
Sports players, police, military make impressions on the youth of today too. How aware are they of the trials and ethical challenges that await them. Idealism is always risky. Ani's dreams were also the seeds of his demise IMO.

Maybe they chose not to fraternize with the Jedi just in case they ever had to obey it.
I wonder if the Jedi ever tried to sense what the clones were 'thinking' or 'feeling'? Did they 'disturb the force' the way the Death Star or Vader or even Luke did? I'm just wondering if the Jedi 'felt' the lack of connection with the clones. If so, would it have made the Jedi even more nervous about dealing with them...

...If you don't understand your troops, how can you expect to lead them effectively? If you're troops don't trust you, why would they follow you? And if they're following you despite not trusting you, what does that say? I find it strange that 3-million soldiers could be loyal, ambivalent, caring, and deceitful all at the same time and never cause the Jedi Order to question the clones' motivations. We are talking 3-years of working together - that's a long time.

Sorry, K-fan, just had to respond to something:

I wrote:
many Germans -- as well as most other Europeans -- were happily slaughtering Jews well before (and during) the Third Reich.

greenandwhitejedi wrote:
Persecution and bigotry were prevalent, but not wholesale slaughter... it took one crazy fella and an intsitution hell-bent on the task to press Germany into a policy of genocide. I'm pretty sure (by which I mean "I know") that the people of Europe were not up to it already.

Here is what I know (notice that I don't need quotation marks):
Since the late eighteenth century, pogroms had been occurring in Russia, Poland, Romania, Lithuania -- and, yes, Germany -- as well as other countries throughout Europe, South America, and the Middle East. These pogroms are historical fact, and are not disputed by any of the countries I have listed. (Alas, most of the atrocities performed in Arab countries are officially denied.)

A policy of German genocide was never made official until Hitler, but I never wrote that it was. I said Jews were being slaughtered before him -- and Jews were being killed, in concentrated attacks, in the hundreds and thousands. That is slaughter.