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Echoes from the Asteroid Field
by: anakinside1
date posted: Sep 20, 2006 12:59 PM  | 
updated: Sep 20, 2006 1:01 PM
I sense something. A presence I've not felt since....Padme....?
"She was alive! I felt it!" Vader, ROTS
"I sense something a presence I haven't felt since....." Vader, ANH

Ever since the PT came out I have found it is almost impossible for me to watch familiar OT scenes (such as the one referenced above) without the light of the PT having some impact. While watching the OT I find I can't unlearn what I have learned about Anakin's story, and, in fact, trying to decipher what might be going on behind that impenetrable black mask of Vader's is one of the things that keeps me hooked.

For a while I have been wondering something. It's clear that Jedi are able to distinguish the presences of particular individuals in the Force especially those of people who are close to them. For instance, Yoda could sense pain and suffering and knew it was Anakin's in AOTC, and Anakin was absolutely right that the last time he felt Padme's presence in the Force she was indeed alive on Mustafar. So, in ANH when Vader approaches the Millennium Falcon after it has been pulled into the DS and senses a particular presence this is not surprising. Before the PT, however, I had just assumed that the presence he was sensing was Obi-Wan's, but now I wonder if there might be more too it than that.

I've always found it odd that Vader, after sensing this strange presence, just turns around and walks away. It doesn't really make sense to me that Vader (who has been trying "convince" others in his regime that technology, no matter how powerful, is insignificant in comparison to the power of the Force) suddenly trusts such an important mission to a feeble scanning crew. It especially doesn't make sense when not much later Vader kills Obi-Wan with absolutely no hesitation. Vader's feelings about Obi-Wan are clear. He's only too happy to finish him off and finally prove his mastery over the one who left him limbless and in limbo. It is one of his ultimate triumphs as Vader, and goes a long way in justifying the choices he has made.

I think that what makes Vader turn away is that there was more to that presence than Obi-Wan - there was also Luke. I think that he could feel shades of Padme through his son (in whom the Force was for the first time consciously stirring) that made his initial reaction more tumultuous emotionally and therefore much harder to figure out. I think Vader needed time to get his head (or at least his mask) on straight about the whole situation. When he tries to explain what he felt to Tarkin Vader says he felt a "tremor in the Force." The last time he felt it was in the presence of his old master, but Obi-Wan wasn't the only one there on Mustafar, Padme was there too. To admit to feeling that though would be to risk re-awakening the Anakin inside, so Vader simply applies Vader-logic to the situation (Vader-logic would be the same sorts of mental twists and turns that allow him to not recognize Leia though she looks like Padme, and not consciously believe that a boy running around with his last name could be his son until the Emperor says it out loud). Time and again Vader separates out the particular feelings that most clearly support the survival of the Vader point of view, and acts on those. I think this could be one of those times. I think that Vader could sense the presence of his beloved in the Force, but couldn't bring himself to believe it because to believe it would be to admit that everything he'd lived since Mustafar was in some way a lie.

Or I could just be full of bantha poodoo.

So, what do you think?
:D ?:|

jedi_iain
From A Certain Point Of View
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 1:28 PM
I've never really thought about that, but you could be on to something with that.
You've got me wondering now, though, is it a question of Obi-Wan or Padme, or was Vader sensing the two of them together, the two feelings at the same time, combined into one 'Force-tremor' ?:|

Very good blog
hansgirl3
Invoking the Squee
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 1:31 PM
He's only too happy to finish him off and finally prove his mastery over the one who left him limbless and in limbo.

I hadn't thought of that one before! Interesting that you bring that up, AS1! It certainly does bring a whole new light to that scene and a new justification for Vader's fury during their fight, doesn't it?

In my recent blog on this topic, I thought about how Vader might be sensing the two children as well as Obi-wan and not realize it. I like your angle on this that he is just not willing to admit it, given that Luke is running around with his last name. Of course, we don't know if he KNOWS Luke's last name, though... ?:|
  Jedi Arwen Skywalker
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 1:32 PM
You are so totally not full of, well, it.:D

After all those years of being buried, Anakin's memories come to the top, pretty quick, don't they. After seeing the PT I firmly believe he sensed Padme in Luke and Leia, but could not recognize what he was sensing because he had thought and felt like DV for so long. So his joy in finally getting to finish off Obi-wan was tempered by these others signatures that triggered something buried deep in his heart. He had to have felt Luke, he was such a bright light, and as we've already discussed. Luke had taken Padme's dying words to heart, so it makes perfect sense (to me) that his signature would remind Anakin of Padme's. cont
  Jedi Arwen Skywalker
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 1:43 PM
Um, i hope my other comment shows up...

But anyway cont.

I don't think DV is capable of admitting it,or really even figuring out what he is feeling. Only when Anakin begins to fight again is he able to realize that he has a son, one that he does not want to kill. I aslo agree with you about the influence the PT has on you when you watch the OT. I was watching ROTJ yesterday, and seeing links all over the place!

OK, I'm done. Great blog, thanks for listening to me, and see you later.
The Stooge
Star Wars Joke-A-Day
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 1:44 PM
The last time he felt it was in the presence of his old master, but Obi-Wan wasn't the only one there on Mustafar, Padme was there too.

Ooooooooh, that's good. Stinkin' brilliant, really!
FAN4YRS
A Rebel's Ramblings
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 1:50 PM
I like the theory, but then...why didn't Vader sense Padme in Leia?
padmeskywalker77
Padme's Legacy
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 2:03 PM
Wonderful, my dear :D

I have often thought this myself, especially now that we have the PT to "fill in the blanks." Vader's not mentioning "feeling" more than Obi-Wan may have been his way of concealing that he knew something was up other than his feeling/sensing Obi. I agree that this adds to the story...especially when he says "the Force is strong with this one" when pursuing Luke during the attack on the Death Star. I think he may have started realizing that there was more to this "boy" than he thought...that he could be his son. :x

Again...great job :)
viagoangel2
Were Anakin and Padme' really one?
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 2:43 PM
I think that Vader could sense the presence of his beloved in the Force, but couldn't bring himself to believe it because to believe it would be to admit that everything he'd lived since Mustafar was in some way a lie. I too have thought of this and I agree with you here AS1. Just the way Vader gazes out into the bleak blackness of space throughout the OT is enough for me to believe that he could indeed sense Padme's presence. Awesome entry my daaaahling:x
MomOf2YoungPadawan
Mamadala's Lair
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 2:55 PM
Ahhh, I see you picked this idea up and ran with it.. :D ...and quite the "track star" you are ;)

You put this brilliantly: The last time he felt it was in the presence of his old master, but Obi-Wan wasn't the only one there on Mustafar, Padme was there too., or as Stooge said: "stinkin' brilliant!" :D

I think that he could feel shades of Padme through his son (in whom the Force was for the first time consciously stirring) yessss....CONSCIOUSLY stirring! that would help explain why he never felt his presence before that, and why he may not have been able to feel it in Leia's presence, either.

Or I could just be full of bantha poodoo Nope, just pure genius! :x !
  Dagon23
One Sith to Rule them All
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 3:09 PM
That made lots of sense, thanks for sharing your thoughts

I could just be full of bantha poodoo. you should probably get that checked:)

Embrace the Dark Side]:)
jediprincess77
I Know...
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 4:01 PM
Ooooh! Great stuff!

To admit to feeling that though would be to risk re-awakening the Anakin inside

Then, after hearing Luke call him "father" time after time, he finally gives in and lets Anakin resurface. Vader-logic was finally overcome by Anakin's love for Padme, and the feeling that Padme lives on in their children.

Loved this blog, as1!!
Qui-Tom Servo loves Padme
You Must Unlearn What You Have Learned
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 4:06 PM
Hmmm. I've always believed that the Force itself was shielding their light from the dark side until the time was right as Vader had left the Force in chaos. I wonder if he could be feeling the light side of the Force again, and that is what is troubling him. The warmth of the light is a strong contrast to the cold darkness he's lived with all these years.
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 4:28 PM
I think that you are NEVER full of bantha poodoo, as1. This is brilliant. A brilliant blog entry, and I love to think of it just as you do. I search for shades of Padme everywhere in the OT, and this one makes perfect sense.

A thought occurred to me. IF...I had gotten my wish. IF...Padme had lived beyond ROTS, we might never have the shades of gray inherent in the Force explanation for the twins' vague memory of her. It might be too well-defined to apply all these shades of gray.

Again...brilliant.
  anigirl3
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 4:35 PM
Hello, friends of the LILWA! LILWA is that very thing I wish to talk of. For lack of anything better to do (aside from SW movies) I decided to Google 'LILWA'. I came up with...are you ready...









LONG ISLAND LIQUID WASTE ASSOCIATION

Gives a whole new meaning to our little obsession now, doesn't it? Also. I have checked his bio on www.imdb.com and found out important things about Hayden, such as birthday (must celebrate), where he lives, and where he attended high school (pilgrimage, girls?) and that he was in a commercial for Pringles (I'll be eating a lot more of them now!)
jedilily1026
Years Matter Not (Gone Crazy...Be Back Soon)
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 5:47 PM
Or I could just be full of bantha poodoo Never sweetie!!!!

Because of the black mask we never see emotions. I guess GL meant it to be this way. But I would like to believe that ever since he started feeling that strange presence he started to remember his past and his wife. Yu see him looking out to the stars and I have commented before that maybe he's thinking.

just turns around and walks away. He did have an image to uphold....as being hard and heartless.
anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 6:20 PM
or was Vader sensing the two of them together,

I think the two of them together.

we don't know if he KNOWS Luke's last name, though...

I guess that the openning lines of ESB made me think he knew who he was searching for.

but could not recognize what he was sensing because he had thought and felt like DV for so long.

I agree talk about a hard habit to break.

Stinkin' brilliant, really!

Why thank you!
anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 6:27 PM
I like the theory, but then...why didn't Vader sense Padme in Leia?

Yes, I've thought of this too. Two things. First Luke was finally actively using the Force which may have allowed his presence to resonate differently in the Force itself. Sort of like when we move we create currents in the air, but when we are still the air is also still. Secondly, we don't really know how Vader reacted when he first met Leia. It's clear they already know each other in ANH. He could have reacted in a similar way - to feel something, to retreat, and then to be angry. Also, I am not saying that when he senses a presence in ANH that Obi-Wan isn't part of it. I just think that there's something more to it than that.
anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 6:31 PM
I think he may have started realizing that there was more to this "boy" than he thought...that he could be his son.

I think so too, even if not consciously.:)

Just the way Vader gazes out into the bleak blackness of space

Yes, I love it when he does that! What is he thinking?

CONSCIOUSLY stirring!

Ah, you caught that! That was me covering my booty about the Leia question.:D

you should probably get that checked

Sound advice.;)
anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 6:37 PM
Vader-logic was finally overcome by Anakin's love for Padme, and the feeling that Padme lives on in their children.

'bout time don't you think!

I wonder if he could be feeling the light side of the Force again, and that is what is troubling him. The warmth of the light is a strong contrast to the cold darkness he's lived with all these years.

Now that's brilliant!

anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 6:38 PM
It might be too well-defined to apply all these shades of gray.

Yes, we have so much space to fill with our own wondering.

LONG ISLAND LIQUID WASTE ASSOCIATION

hmmmmmm. Don't tell Angel, she's gonna have a field day with that one!:8}

He did have an image to uphold

Yes, and most especially his image of himself!
  darth maul517
Darth Jedi Maul Secura
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 6:50 PM
I think he struck down Obi-Wan quickly to get to Luke as soon as possible.To discover why this boy was:giving off a strong presence in the force,radiating the aura of Padme,reawanking Anakin,if ever so slowy,and introducing him to a different lightside-that of innocence,peace and love.Great Blog.
Michelle1968
M68- Star Wars Kid at Heart
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 8:00 PM
YOU ARE GOOD. That's all I got to say about that. ;)
jkelly
There Is No Conflict
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 8:33 PM
Sometimes I'm guilty of over-analyzing scenes like this, too.

Right now, I'm of the mind that Anakin was so far gone that nothing was "stirring" until the end of TESB or later. I think the terrifying Vader we all loved to hate before 1999 was really the terrifying Vader we all loved to hate through the majority of the OT. Nothing complex, nothing deep, just an evil person. When you consider it that way, too, Luke's redemption of his father is even more powerful.

... but I'll probably change my mind again sometime next month.
Jedi Master Mina
Jedi blogging, go back to your drinks!
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 9:28 PM
think that you are NEVER full of bantha poodoo, as1

NEVER say NEVER....*ahem*. One can NEVER have enough bantha poodoo built up in the system.

Anyhoot, you make some very good points AS1. But, I might add that in the book "Shadows of the Emperor", which is set between ANH and ESB, Vader spends most of his time building a deception around Sidious, but tries to conspire to over throw him with his newly discovered son. In the meantime, Sidious hires several hit men to not only kill Luke, but Vader as well. So what we see on film is Vader playing a sick game with Sidious in hopes of over throwing him.
Jedi Master Mina
Jedi blogging, go back to your drinks!
date Posted: Sep 20, 2006 9:31 PM
con.t...

Also in the book, Vader realizes that his son might be stronger than him and his feelings are described almost as if he is more like a proud father rather than an evil Sith Lord. Just food for thought.

I think the book was also called "Shadows of the Empire", not Emperor. :) ...blonde moment.
anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 5:10 AM
I think he struck down Obi-Wan quickly to get to Luke as soon as possible.

Interesting take, though I don't know if I agree.

Thanks, M68

Right now, I'm of the mind that Anakin was so far gone that nothing was "stirring" until the end of TESB or later.

I do think emotions stirred, but I don't think the result of those emotions early on were much more than confusion and anger. I also think that confusion and anger came as a result of his whole world view being challenged by the very existance of his son whether he knew it was his son or not.

almost as if he is more like a proud father

I'll have to check that out.:)
Qui-Tom Servo loves Padme
You Must Unlearn What You Have Learned
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 11:30 AM
I think the conflict really began in Vader when he figured out that Luke was his son. Hints of it come in the Death Star duel with Obi-Wan, but it really gets going when Luke enters the picture because Luke represents what he used to be. He could always lie to himself about what he believed as a Jedi, but he cannot lie to himself about what Padme.
Qui-Tom Servo loves Padme
You Must Unlearn What You Have Learned
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 11:30 AM
I think the conflict really began in Vader when he figured out that Luke was his son. Hints of it come in the Death Star duel with Obi-Wan, but it really gets going when Luke enters the picture because Luke represents what he used to be. He could always lie to himself about what he believed as a Jedi, but he cannot lie to himself about Padme.
  anigirl3
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 3:45 PM
Don't tell Angel, she's gonna have a field day with that one!

Oh, YOOO-HOOOOOOOOO! Angel? Where AAARE you?
  Jedi Arwen Skywalker
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 3:56 PM
Shadows of the Empire is one of the best EU books. You really see Vader's turning back begin.
JediMelindaWolf
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 9:38 PM
Incredibly intriguing thoughts, as1. It is something I never have considered. It could be plausible. I just don't know how probable.

There was an extremely strong Force connection between Anakin and Obi-wan, and I really do think the tremor to which DV refers is Obi-wan, not Padme, or Padme through Luke. If this tremor was so familiar, he would be able to recognize it as Obi-wan's (wouldn't Padme's be somewhat different?). If Luke's Force powers are only beginning to be awakened, I find it highly unlikely that DV would have been able to make some sort of connection through/to the Tattooine farmboy.

Mull this over some more I will.
Thank you for some thought-provoking ideas!
MTFBWY :)
JawaJoey
Return of the Jawa
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 11:05 PM
Hmm. What Vader felt could have been many things. It's originally assumed that he's refering to Obi-Wan, but it's very interesting that Obi-Wan AND BOTH of his children arrive at the same time. Perhaps he was more confused than people usually think when he ran off in that scene.

I don't think he specifically recognized Padme in Leia, because he was extremely forthcoming in harshness and torture, something he could have never done to Padme. Plus, in ROTJ, he seems genuinely interested in the sister revelation.
JawaJoey
Return of the Jawa
date Posted: Sep 21, 2006 11:05 PM

But perhaps when the Falcon arrived, he felt lots of things. Remnants of Padme, and himself, in his children, and remnants of the old Jedi order, freindship, his master and himself, in obi-wan. That's a lot, and he could be confused, but Vader would most likely write all the feelings off as due to Obi-Wan.
  anigirl3
date Posted: Sep 22, 2006 12:10 PM
just be full of bantha poodoo.

That reminds me...to all fans who are still in school, be careful when using SW in your work! My essay on the difference between the OT and the PT was all right, as was a quote from RotS in a paper for English, but my Psychology teacher had no idea what I meant when I used the phrase 'bantha poodoo'. So watch it. And to all teachers reading this: please, let up on your students! We can't take the work!
cbern
Omega Squad's 5th member
date Posted: Sep 23, 2006 8:17 AM
hey as1

i wrote a blog very similar to this here

i agree, he sensed Luke, not Obi wan

it's also possible obi wan cloaked his senses, and vader couldn't feel him in the force at all
  rj_peters
Memos from the Imperial Finance Department
date Posted: Sep 26, 2006 10:09 AM
I came to the party late on this one, but I had to comment. Really good stuff and insightful. I definitely think you're on to something there.
anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
date Posted: Sep 26, 2006 3:47 PM
rj peters

You're welcome to the party anytime you get here! Thanks.:)
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