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 | Minimalism in the EU -- 600 Million to 1? |
 This is a strange case. One which involves "realistic" numbers having been established in the EU on one side of a war, and extremely minimalistic numbers established on the opposing side. The war is the Clone Wars. The sides are Droids versus Clones. The problem: According to EU the clones were outnumbered by obscene amounts (to be discussed below).
Based on calculations derived from the Geonosis Foundry output, the CIS could effectively double its size in less than a month, and perhaps as little as a day. This is supported by EU figures, which state that, by ROTS, the CIS had quintillions of droids. A quintillion is 1E18, or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000. That's huge.
For the Clones we have the ambiguous "We have 200,000 units ready, with a million more well on the way," quote from AOTC. Problem: What defines a unit? Is a unit one trooper? Is it one squad? One Platoon? One Division? One Legion? It isn't defined.
Well logic would tell us it cannot be a single clone. 1.2 million clones isn't nearly enough to fight a galactic war. Unfortunately, 1.2 million clones is what EU decided to go with. Maybe LFL can't understand the vastness of the galxy, or the fact that the Soviet Union lost more than 1.2 million troops in World War II on a single planet.
But wait. There's hope. LFL stated that they realized that the 1.2 million clones was foolish (even with the AOTC ITW attempting a retconn by saying millions more clones were nearly ready at other Kaminoan facilities), and would be correcting the figure in later publications or works.
Then, in just the past week or so, Star Wars Insider had a feature about the Grand Army of the Republic, written by the esteemed Karen Traviss and Ryan Kaufman. Alright! I thought, this will fix that crummy 1.2 million!
Sadly, I saw that the article not only supported the original output being 1.2 million, but capped the number of clones at 3.2 million (or maybe 6.2 million depending on how you interpret the article). I was suprised to say the least. Adding on a few million clones isn't gong to make any amount of difference against quadrillions or quintillions of enemies. The authors and LFL soon recanted, saying that there would never be a difinitive publication on the number of clones (to which I wonder; "then why put that info in the article at all?"), effectively backwheeling and leaving us in the dark. But the number was published, and anyone reading it can tell that the original intention was for the entire Grand Army of the Republic to number in the low millions. Not very Grand is it? The US Army in WWI had as many men.
It's nonsense. It's impossible. Minimalists can scream all they want about how awesome the Clones were, and how they were only special forces, and how droids suck and other such foolishness. But it is practically impossible for 3.2 million to defeat a few hundred million, let alone quadrillions or quintillions. And this isn't even mentioning the fact that Clones man guns on capital ships and fly most of the fighters. 3.2 million clones were probably used up manning guns and fighters at the Battle of Coruscant.
But to offer some cold hard logic, let's generously assume that the CIS had only 2 Quadrillion. That's 2,000,000,000,000,000. Alright so we have a gross underestimation and extreme lower limit on the number of droids in the CIS. Then let's look at the "Grand Army of the Republic"; 3,200,000. Looks kinda puny in comparison huh? Well, it is.
2 quadrillion diided by 3.2 million gives us 666.67 million!!
You know what that means? Each clone trooper will have to kill 6.6 MILLION droids in order to break even, and the clones cannot suffer any casualties. Well you tell me, do the films support the clones defeating the droids by a ratio of 666,666,667:1? Nope. Does EU? Nope. Even the exaggerated Clone Wars Cartoons show inadequate ratios. The SWI article itself states that clones killed droids in a ration of 200:1. That may be feasible with our given information, but it's hardly going to help the clone army defeat an enemy with forces 6.6 million times larger!
Think about it, every single clone trooper would have to mop the floor with the entire population of United States 2.5 TIMES single-handedly and not one of them could die.
So. This is yet another case of EU minimalism. This one has not been fixed (and if LFL is to be believed) will never be.
Maybe 3.2 million Divisions or Legions of clones might be sufficient. But 3.2 million clones would not be able to capture and hold a single world, let alone go on the offensive against a force that out numbers it 6.6 million to One.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/captainneeda/8 |

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darthbathory
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 1:37 PM
This is a very interesting article. All I have to add is that when I first saw AOTC I swear that I heard the Kaminoan Prime Minister say that they had "a billion more on the way." Most likely I just misheard the line.
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 1:43 PM
I think the number of clones is just fine, but we need to seriously reduce the number of droids to say... 64 Million.
If you wanted to retcon it, I suppose they could do some sort of story about raids on MASSIVE droid storage facilities. But seriously, quintillion? That's ridiculous even for Star Wars. 
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Nex: The T is Hott!! "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 1:46 PM
Actually "quintillions" is perfectly is line with the industrial capacity of the CIS.
And "millions" on either side is far too small to fight a galactic war with 20 million known inhabited worlds. Quintillions makes far more sense than Millions.
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 1:58 PM
" And "millions" on either side is far too small to fight a galactic war with 20 million known inhabited worlds."
Tell that to the Galactic Civil War two decades later
Not every world was involved in the war, some remained neutral (such as Utapau up until the very end), and many of so called "inhabitable" worlds are sparsely populated, such as Tatooine, Endor, Dantooine, Hoth, and Yavin IV to name a few.
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Nex: The T is Hott!! "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:06 PM
The GCW is not analagous to the CW. The Rebellion and the Empire weren't in all out war like the Repub. and CIS were. The Rebels were, for all intents and purposes like a terrorist group. And the Empire surely had trillions if not many more soldiers in the military.
The Republic would have needed more than 3.2 million clones just to secure Coruscant (which Bail Organa says is becoming like a police state) let capture and hold hundreds of planets.
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:13 PM
it is foolish to think that Tipoca City was the ONLY place that clones were being produced. There were countless cities on Kamino, so lets say that there are 100 cities on an ENTIRE PLANET of cloners. Lets say they each produce 1.2 million clones.
100 x 1 200 000 = 1 200 000 000
so thats 1.2 BILLION CLONES. to me, this is a reasonable claim, even though I have no Idea how many cities are on Kamino.
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:17 PM
Lets also remember that the CIS uses droids for EVERYTHING. pilots, gunners, workers, etc in every last thing the CIS does, there are droids. Thousands are used to fly one their ships. So a massive part of the quintillion never actually saw combat. The CIS threw droids at emenies like the Chinese did in Korea. They may suck, but with massive numbers, they can do serious damage. Lets also not forget that the Jedi prepared strategic surgical strikes against seperatist weakpoints. There was never full scale combat on every Seperatist world.
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:17 PM
The CIS kept all its worlds defended, while the Republic essentially "planet-hopped" to the seperatist Strongholds. So even with the CIS vastly outnumbering the clones, most droids never saw action. Finally, when CIS leadership was killed, the droids were simply shut down. If the Republic leadership had been wiped out, the CIS likely would have had to kill every last clone before the war ended.
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DarthVicomte Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 2:45 PM
You seem very knowledgeable about all the numbers of SW, it amazes me, frankly, it must have taken some time fo all that research. Also, don't use the word "ambiguous" so much, mix it up a bit, I usually like to use a combination of nonsensical and enigmatic when replacing ambiguous. Great blogs, keep 'em coming.
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Nex: The T is Hott!! "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:23 PM
so thats 1.2 BILLION CLONES. to me, this is a reasonable claim, even though I have no Idea how many cities are on Kamino.
So you're ok with each clone needing to take on 1,666,667 droids?
Lets also remember that the CIS uses droids for EVERYTHING. pilots, gunners, workers, etc in every last thing the CIS does, there are droids.
Not every clone is infantry either. As I say in the blog, the clone gunners and pilots in the Battle of Coruscant alone could have numbered 3.2 million
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Nex: The T is Hott!! "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:23 PM
Thousands are used to fly one their ships.
Actually, CIS ships are heavily automated, only a few hundred droids were needed for each ship.
They may suck, but with massive numbers, they can do serious damage.
AOTC Novelization would disagree.
Republic essentially "planet-hopped" to the seperatist Strongholds.
So what's to stop the CIS from moving back in once the Republic leave?
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General Tarfful The Kachirho Daily Journal
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:25 PM
it is foolish to think that Tipoca City was the ONLY place that clones were being produced. There were countless cities on Kamino, so lets say that there are 100 cities on an ENTIRE PLANET of cloners.
That may seem like a conservative estimate until you consider that the Kaminoans have to build their cities on giant stilts. Also, it's much harder to move between them. So small cities can't really be supported, which puts a minimum size cap on city size, which in turn generally means fewer cities. And they're reclusive, which limits growth.
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General Tarfful The Kachirho Daily Journal
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:25 PM
...
And it's a very harsh environment, which also limits growth and means that they can probably only build in a specific "temperate band," probably around the equator or something. So I'd say there aren't exactly "countless" cities on Kamino.
And also: Nex never said Tipoca City was the only place clones were being produced.
Lets say they each produce 1.2 million clones.
100 x 1 200 000 = 1 200 000 000
so thats 1.2 BILLION CLONES. to me, this is a reasonable claim, even though I have no Idea how many cities are on Kamino.
...
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General Tarfful The Kachirho Daily Journal
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:26 PM
But you're kind of missing the point. I'd agree with you that the Republic probably has the capability to produce billions or even trillions of clones (trillions would be neccessary for the kill ratio to make sense), but the point is that published literature has said specifically that there are only about 3 million clones. Nex isn't saying the Republic can only produce that many. He's saying that the EU has said they only produced that many.
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General Tarfful The Kachirho Daily Journal
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:26 PM
...
Anyway, great blog, Nex. You bring up a good point.
And the whole thing could largely be solved by just a simple note in the next Insider:
"CORRECTION: The Grand Army of the Republic contained 10,000 Systems Army, not 10 as originally stated, for a total of 30 billion individual clones."
Add in some massive factory sabotage and incredible strategic deployment, and you have a nice compromise. 
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:44 PM
Nex, I see what you are saying. What I was trying to say is that yes, the CIS pumps out droids like a water fountain, but the Republic used well placed attacks. They captured key worlds, and thus forced the Seperatist Leadership to be on the move constantly. Obviously, I am not saying that each clone kills millions of droids, but look at the facts. The CIS had the Republic outnumbered in almost every way, but they defended every world. So the Republic attacked their key holdings and then spread to nearby systems after the key system was taken. By the time of ROTS , non clones were in the Republics ranks.
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:48 PM
evidence of the "planet hopping" would be the fact that the Republic was on key seperatist worlds BEFORE the Outer Rim Seiges, which were basically the mop up operations of what was left of the CIS. Furthermore, the CIS was able to enter the galactic core with a massive fleet, enter Courascant airspace, land forces on the ground, enter the CHANCELLORS OFFICE, and get him on board their flagship, before a desperate rescue was attempted. As you can see, the Republic could not even protect its Capitol.
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Nex: The T is Hott!! "Apology accepted, Captain Needa"
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:49 PM
Tarfful: Thanks! Yeah, I'm hoping for a retconn like that down the line
Kobb: Yes I know, but the fact that the conflict is called the Clone Wars indicates they played a very large role in the war rather than leaving the fighting to local forces and non-clone armies. It seems both you and I agree that 3.2 million is too small 
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 3:50 PM
since this is true, the Republic was forced to be resourceful and hit key targets, like Cato Neimoiedia, Mygeeto, and others. This kept the sepratist leaders moving, never allowing them to settle in and effectively wage a war.
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Commander_Kobb
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date Posted: Oct 01, 2005 4:55 PM
yes, we both agree at least on that.
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KingoftheATATs
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date Posted: Oct 02, 2005 3:38 PM
Wow. That's very interesting. Lama Su must have meant legions or something else... not single clones, when he said "units". But still, I do say clones could easily defeat almost any amount of stupid, dumb, uninteligent droids! 
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jediknight2210 Where did you dig up that old fossil?
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date Posted: Oct 04, 2005 4:08 PM
Whoa what a cool blog! Your a genious with all those numbers...
Well all the clones were streched thin across the Galaxy so in The Cestus Deception, Obi-wan, Kit Fisto, and a small group of Arc troopers trained the locals on the planet Cestus and made a small militia......I could see this done on thousands of planets across the Galaxy.
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LordShaithis
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date Posted: Oct 06, 2005 6:11 PM
You're "stretched thin" when you have 3/4 of the forces your enemy does. You're in desperate straits when you have 1/2 their forces. When you have 1/6000000000, the enemy doesn't even know you're there.
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Cull Tremayne You say that about everything you own. You should own toys. They're fun
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date Posted: Oct 06, 2005 7:58 PM
I really don't like that your argument is being pushed aside as being way too analytical. Karen states that she had a double sided dilemma on her hands. If she made the clone army too big, then that would have brought questions of how a small water planet like Kamino could have created so many clones. However, I think this is much easier to fix than saying that 3 million clones could capture thousands of worlds, much less one world. Three million clones couldn't conquer earth! How could they possibly fight across a universe?
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Cull Tremayne You say that about everything you own. You should own toys. They're fun
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date Posted: Oct 06, 2005 8:00 PM
Also there's no way that Kamino is the only world that is making clones. They make up the entire army of the Republic. Is such a valuable resource really going to be contained on one world? There's even an easy fix, just a quick comment suggesting that clones are being produced on Kamino's moons, other planets, secret bases, etc. Kamino couldn't possibly be the only place to make clones. If it was, why then wouldn' t the Seps focus all their resources on destroying Kamino?
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Master Starkeiller POWWWAAAAHHH!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNLIMITEEED POWWWAAAAHHH!!!
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date Posted: Oct 18, 2005 10:22 AM
STUPIDITYYY!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUNLIMITEEED STUPIDITYYY!!! The E.U. minimalism's unlimited stupidity won again. Millions fighting quadrillions? Get the Hell outta here! A chance ruined. Why? Why? WHYYYYY??? Forgive my outrage, but I hate these numbers, so obviously wrong yet protected by the veil of officiality.. They need no ret-con. Just wipe them out. All of them. And replace them with reasonable numbers based on calculations...
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