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 | The Yoda VS. Sidious fight has not to do with lightsaber skill.... |
 I've seen many blogs about this, and I'm not quite sure if anyone has written on this subject. So, if they had, just ignore this, and have a nice day!
I'm sure Yoda is a skilled warrior in his own right, as well as Sidious. But this period in time is not the time for Jedi. For those of you who haven't read the novel of Episode III, Mathew Stover put it like this: The brighter a candle burns, the darker the shadows become.
"A Jedi can feel his strength flow from the force." - Master Yoda
"The Force is with us, master." - Count Dooku
At this point, Sidious has the force absolutely polluted with the dark side of the force. While Yoda fights Sidious, he is drawing his power from the force to guide his blade. Meanwhile, Sidious is controlling the force, meaning Yoda has no advantage over him, and he's only being manipulated. The harder Yoda fights, the more power Sidious gains. (i.e. the candle reference.) At this point, Yoda realizes he had been training Jedi for the LAST Sith battle, while the Sith had evolved. This is in part why he flees, because he knows he cannot win.
So in conclusion, the battle has nothing to do with the skills of a lightsaber, but the way the Jedi had been trained to draw energy from the force, which at that point is in the hands of Darth Sidious.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/countofserreno/1 |
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Dark_Load
The Death Star's Laundromat
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 3:09 AM
But as Kevin J. Anderson put it in his book Champions of the Force,
"The only way to extinguish the shadows is to increase the light!"
Or something close.
And then three of the Jedi candidates killed Exar Kun's spirit.
But the point is that the Sith don't have that much control over the Force; that is why they draw on thier anger and hatred for strength.
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Darth Desimus
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 4:48 AM
I like the candle analogy but I wouldn't read into it too much. It makes both palps and Yoda too much like cyphers. It takes great skill to use the force and both Yoda and Palps were doing some amazing stuff in ep3 so I disagree with Dark_Load intensely.
Sith draw on the dark side of the force - they use it in a different way to the jedi - it's not weaker. On the contrary it is arguably more powerful in combat (even if it is self destructive in the long term) so it's a bit glib to say dark siders don't have 'that much control'.
It's merely a more energetic approach...
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Osilio Remus
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 10:30 AM
Excellent! I loved it! We need more blogs like this! Honestly!
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vaderfan1992
battlefront 2
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 6:35 PM
VERY GOOD POINT! 
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Darth Sidious
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 6:43 PM
LOVED IT!! I agree totally with your blog. THE BEST!! BEAUTIFUL!!! AWSOME! I CANT EXPRESS IT ANY OTHER WAY!!! ![]:)](http://blogs.starwars.com/share/img/emoticons/devil.gif)
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Mindless Mandalorian
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 7:21 PM
You say that the jedi had been trained to fight the previous sith war. Well how would you suggest they be trained differently. I prefer to think of it as they were looking for the previous threat. I wouldn't say so much that Sideous was feeding off of and manipulating Yoda, because then how would Yoda expect Luke to defeat Sideous, because remember his origional goal was for Luke to kill Sideous and Vader.
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Mindless Mandalorian
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 7:21 PM
And I would also ask, then why was Mace capable of defeating Sideous. I don't believe Mace was more powerful than Yoda. You May say Sideous was relying on Anakin to intervien, but Sideous does not strike me as the kind of person to rely on such an unknown. And about the various analogies, I would ingore them, they are analogies not facts, so they do not always apply to every situation. I would suffice to say that Yoda retreated because Sideous got backup before Yoda could close with him again after is fall in the Senate Chamber, and a few blaster bolts for Yoda to block would be enough to give Sideous a chance to defeat him.
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jedirissole
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 7:56 PM
Yeah good point. I was thinking along the same lines...
That the Sith were also clouding the Jedis' vision so it was hard to predict which way they would move or where their next blow would land...
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MasterBen73
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 8:16 PM
Ok!time for the Master to step in before someone hurts themself.Mace kicked old Sidious' butt because Mace is COOLER,duh!No seriously,Mace Windu has mastered a form of lightsaber combat that is a combination of all previous forms (there are 7 forms,Mace's is the 7th),meaning he had an advantage that Yoda didn't have.Furthermore,nither Sidious OR Yoda won that fight.Technicly it was a tie,both of them were evenly matched.Yoda left when he did because if he kept the fight going,the clonetroopers would have finished him off.Same senario as the one with Dooku,only Dooku would have bit the lazerbolt.
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Canoe513
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 8:17 PM
I just have to add my two cents. In Ep2 Obi made a remark to anikin about yoda's lightsaber skill. Watching each movie I am not convinced that yoda is that great. Sure he saved Obi and Anikin in Ep2 from Dooku, but he should have beat him if he was so great. And the fight between him and sideous, that was worse. I think that if yoda and obi switched Anikin and Sedious would have been killed.
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Nintendo DS
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 9:18 PM
I think you make a good point, but nobody is sure if the novel is 100% accurate to the movies. However, I think that Palpatine has superior lightsbaer skills to Yoda. 
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Darth Gehena
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 11:30 PM
Interesting blog and point. I feel compelled to disagree with Mindless Mandalorian about Sidious relying on an unknown. Sidious was absolutely certain that Anakin would both turn to the dark side and do so given the circumstances, especially those of Sidious being at Master Windu's mercy. I strongly believe Sidious threw the fight with Mace. He needed Mace in the position Sidious had him in, so as to prove to Anakin that the Jedi were in fact plotting to take over the government.
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Darth Gehena
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 11:35 PM
Besides, Sidious killed 3 Jedi MASTERS in so many SECONDS. Also, when the Force lightning bounced back on him, Sidious claimed to be too weak to continue. Yet as soon as Mace was disarmed (literally!), Sidious instantly bounced back with another blast of lightning. RIDICULOUSLY quick second wind, don't you think?!?!? Add to that the fact that he's a master of the dark side and I believe he had everything under control in that fight. I strongly believe Mace would've been Sidious' B I T C H, if he didn't need him to turn Anakin! Regarding Sidious vs. Yoda, yes I agree that was a draw.
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Darth Gehena
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date Posted: Oct 10, 2005 11:40 PM
I must also disagree with Canoe513. Just because Yoda was great did not mean he had to beat Dooku. It's kinda like Yoda once said, "Wars not make one great!" The fact that Dooku had to endanger Obi-wan and Anakin the way he did meant he knew he had no advantage over Yoda at all, so he needed that dirty trick just to distract Yoda and escape. Yoda had to let Dooku go, else Obi-wan and Anakin might have been killed. Besides, Yoda was the only Jedi (the only one left, anyways) who could take on Sidious one-on-one. Obi-wan had a hard enough time with Dooku; he be ERASED against Sidious.
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sithskywalker6
Darkness is real...Daylight is the illusion.
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 12:30 AM
Mindless Mandalorian, in case you haven't noticed, Luke wasn't trained the same way the other Jedi were trained. At the end of the book, Yoda also says that him and Obi-Wan must train Luke how they SHOULD have trained Jedi to destroy the Sith all along. He admits they made a mistake in training Jedi the way they had been. Stover wasn't allowed to change the action and direction of the story much. He was only really allowed to change dialogue. This is why people should read the books as a side kick to the movies, to get a better understanding of what the characters are thinking, since there are no voice overs in the movies.
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Darth Stoph
Yoda acting unjedi like?
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 3:13 AM
The Novel ends with "One lone candle is enough to hold it back" - That was Yoda, that was his chance. I watched the film three times and saw it as a draw with Yoda losing simply due to his smaller stature: he got blasted further then Sidious.
The Novel also states: " Love is MORE than a candle. Love can ignite stars."- Surely an explanation on why a reformed Vader could do what Yoda (lone candle) could not. I loved Stover's little verses by the way. Made alot of sense to me.
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Darth Stoph
Yoda acting unjedi like?
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 3:16 AM
Something about the Novel and AOTC has always bothered me:
Yoda well had Dooku on the run in their personal battle on Geonosis. What always feels wrong to me about that however was Yoda says clearly on page P214 of ROTS novel that a Jedi would sacrifice another Jedi's life to end the war; even to end the war ONE DAY earlier. Mace and Obi Wan agree with that statement as well. Yet, I believe, Yoda would of beaten Dooku on Geonosis but lets him leave in order to save Obi Wan and Anakin from the giant metal thing about to crush them. So the conversation on page 214 doesn't always seem to ring true. Just an observation!
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Darth Desimus
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 4:52 AM
The interesting point is when you look further down the line from the Yoda/Sids battle. Nothing in the Old trilogy implies that Yoda learnt how to defeat the sith in combat. Sure luke turns vader back to the light but that is because of a father's love for his son not any force technique or teaching, it's simple compassion. Both Yoda and Obiwan seem to believe, and say, that Luke must 'confront' Vader. e.g. Luke says "I can't kill my own father", obi - "Then the Emperor has already won"
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Darth Desimus
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 4:55 AM
These last two jedi were still talking about physical confrontation and defeat of the dark side. As we all saw Luke was no match for Sidious in a one on one confrontation. Yoda if anything became more inflexible after his draw with sidious. There is no suggestion that he ever discovered how to truly vanquish the sith.
Ditto Obiwan.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:27 AM
I have a few points to make from my extensive knowledge of the expanded Universe, all I can say about this situation is that the Sith spent 1000 years preparing in secret for the exact moment where Darth Sidious rises to power. One thousand years in secrecy to reach the destruction of all Jedi through the most powerful master and apprentice possible. One thousand years to come up with a peferct plan of seduction, luring, intrigue, betrayal. The Jedi had no chance as it were because both Sidious and Vader were part of a millinum of preparation. The Jedi had no chance because instead of preparing for the this future they spent 1000 years preparing for another Sith War like it was said already.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:27 AM
The Sith War was fough by thousands of Jedi againts thousands of Sith. This event was only 2 most powerful users of the force and the jedi. The Jedi had no chance because the confict was completelu different. The Dark Power was fully concentrated and channelled in unison to ONE purpose: The destruction of the Jedi. It was never so before. It can be argued that Exar Kun worked separate from Ulic. The Sith War's Siths were simply too many. Sidious and Vader in the other hand had all the policitical power, the element of surprise (that caught every single Jedi except for Yoda), and most important, complete control of the Force which the Jedi depended on. Jedi were fighting blind and crippled.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:28 AM
ABOUT TRAINING:
Someone argued they could not have been trained differently. That is not true. Yoda himself fleed not just because he realized he could not win due to the Dark Lords complete control of the force at that point, just like it was said before. Even if he could not win he would have fought to the end and tried. "Try you will not. Do it or do it not." That is Yoda's philosophy. Yoda fleed because he had an idea. He realized they should have been trained different indeed and that if he died, his idea would die with him. That is why Yoda fleed. It had less to do with power and skill than with wisdom. Yoda fleed because only he at that point knew what to do.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:28 AM
ABOUT MACE, ANAKIN, AND SIDEOUS
As to Mace and Sideous and Anakin goes... Sideous knew Anakin was coming. Mace beat Sideous only because he mastered a fighting style that was superior to all others and that "USED THE DARK SIDE" by definition so that he could channel the power of Sideous in his favor. But Sideous did not care, in fact, he knew that would happen and that it would provide the perfect situation for Anakin's fall. It was all planed, even his defeat. It is not that he let Mace win. It is more that he knew Mace would and that Anakin would be there in the right moment to rise as Vader.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:29 AM
Now the most important point:
WHAT DID YODA KNOW THAT MADE HIM LEAVE?
He knew like it has been said that one lone candle is enough to falter the dark. He was this candle. But he did not have enough light to defeat darkness. He needed to keep his light on enough to wait for the moment where the right light would destroy the Sith: ANAKIN SKYWALKER was the only one who could destroy the Sith. His revelation was that the only way to destoy those who controled the force was that the destruction was to come from within. Yoda never meant for Luke to defeat Sideous or Vader. If he could not why would Luke? Too old, too impatient, too much of everything wrong?
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:29 AM
But Luke had something he could never have. LOVE. He had this bond with Vader which would be enough to ignite Stars!! Even dead stars like the one in Anakin's heart (from the Novel as well). Luke's love (or that of Leia's had Luke failed) was the last hope for the Galaxy. The Jedi were trained wrong because they were trained to avoid loving. It is because of Love, arguably that Obi-Wan became what he did by the end of ROTS. IT was because of Love that Luke ignited something in Vader. Love brough Vader back from the Dark to the light. And then Vader from inside, destroyed the Sith.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:31 AM
By the way, in all of the old trilogy, Luke is being manipulated by Yoda and Obi-Wan. They too had time to prepare. They are not training him to defeat Vader but to seduce him, literally, to love. The reason why Luke was not ready to confront Vader on ESB is because it would not be the appropriate situation for Luke to seduce Vader. The Emperor wasnt even there!!! Yoda knew then Luke would fail. He could never beat the Dark Side. Only Vader could. Even if he had beaten Vader (which would not have happened then) he could not destroy Sideous alone. The Emperor would win.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 7:41 AM
To put it simply. Yoda was even wiser than he was skilled or powerful. In the midst of the dark he saw the light for long enough to realize there was only one thing he needed to do. Flee and create a plan to destroy the Sith from within. The Force provided him with just that, through Amidala's love.
LOVE was the answer in the star wars universe. An answer that the Jedi did not have. They needed a new bread of Jedi. They needed Luke to bring Anakin back.
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darthsaiyan355
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 8:07 AM
this was a truly great blog, I really would love to know where you guys get your information on which side is stronger, I am a darksider fan and have been so since 1978 (age 4) what you wrote really made a lot of cents, But you must relize that every Jedi and sith have their own set of powers, Sidious clouds the jedi's insight into the future and changes things to sute him. he knew just how things were going to happen in ROTS ( anakin walking in)
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darthsaiyan355
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 8:21 AM
also palps has been planinig and ploting for a long time, also Mindless Mandalorian Mace DID NOT DEFEAT PALPS. It was all part of his plan, NONE OF THE JEDI COULD BEAT LORD SIDIOUS. stop kidding yourselves. THAT ALSO INCLUDES MACE........
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Pvt. Pile
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 8:24 AM
I dont think there is anything else any one can add thanks to jbl_usa's very detailed explanations (plural). But one thing does bother me, and maybe this should be a blog of its own. Sidiuos could not have known all aspects of his rise to power like so many people think he does. He is a manipulater of people and their weaknesses. Anakin would have turned to the dark side just to save his wife, not because he killed Mace, think about it, he killed Mace to save the CHANCE of saving his wife. Strong force users can see the many paths that lise ahead, there is never just one outcome.
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darthsaiyan355
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 8:27 AM
thank you Darth Gehena, my sith brother the force is strong with you.
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Pvt. Pile
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 8:29 AM
And to comment on Mace's fighting prowess, even in the books, there is no one that is better skilled in light saber forms than Mace. He did overpower Sidious in his battle, and there is no way that Sidious ABSOLUTLEY knew that Anakin would show, but he bet all his marbles that he would. Read my previuos comment
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 9:32 AM
I agree. Sideous did not absolutely know. But like Yoda says... seeing the future is complicated. Mace for example had an ability to see cracks in the force like Shatterpoint describes. Yoda would meditate. Whichever way Sideous used. He could see several possible futures and for every one of them he had a plan. That is why he was such a great Dark Lord. He might have planned Anakin's fall through his love for Amidala, but he also had forseen the particular moment of Anakin's final fall and had perpared for all possible permutations.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 9:32 AM
Jedi could not have won. At that point I believe he knew MAce would beat him, but allowed it to happen because he expected Anakin to come to Amidala's rescue (not his own). Otherwise like every other good Sith would do when clearly overmatched (and not blinded by pride) he would run.
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jainasolo104
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 9:47 AM
jbl_usa Those where really great obsvervsions. 
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jedijay847
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 9:48 AM
I like your blog. I do not think that it was how the Jedi used the Force. I think what happened was that Yoda realized that the Sith had become more line with the doctrine of the Jedi. The Sith still concentrated on the here and now, but most importantly Sidious realized that to defeat the Jedi he needed to be patient enough to see all of the futures and manipulate them to his own advantage. Yoda then realized that to defeat the Sith the Jedi must become more like the Sith, to concentrate on the present and not worry so much about the future. The also needed to use their passion as their strength. This emotion would be love. And in the end of Stovers book you foresee how the Jedi win in the end. Again good blog.
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Darth Vissie
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 9:55 AM
Sidious would probably win of Yoda but the way he fought against Windu would make me think it was a piece of cake for Yoda. I really can`t say who would had better lightsaber skills
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 10:06 AM
I love what jedijay said. I forgot to mention that. The Sith were always known for being passionate and relying on passions. The Jedi were antagonistic to that (when they should have simply used the opposite emotions rather than no emotions). The difference shouldnt be in the use of emotions and attachment or not. But in whether these emotions and attachment had a good purpose and were good in themselves. Yoda realized this as well. Just as he realized the Sith had been using the jedi way of consiering the future not at the expense of the present. Basically, the Sith were doing all they could do to beat them, while the Jedi were limited to doing what they needed to beat the Sith from before.
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DarthSyric
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 10:13 AM
You have to understand the basic physics of the fight as laid out in the book. Yoda had given up, he realized things had changed. However, he did start winning once he changed. Yoda shot back the force lightning and the mere fact that Palatine weighed more caused him to be able to hold on to the platform. Yoda weight way less was propelled back off the platform.
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jedijeremy147
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 11:19 AM
i think they were just both VERY skilled,but sidious trained harder than yoda,so he had the upper hand.sidious was also more powerful than yoda
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Mr. Know It All
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 12:55 PM
I think your theory is complete bullcrap. Sidious doesnt control the force so Yoda cant use it. They both use it. Someone cant control all of it and no one else can get it. Yoda just flat out lost to someone more powerful than he was.
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sithskywalker6
Darkness is real...Daylight is the illusion.
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date Posted: Oct 11, 2005 2:01 PM
I think your name is bullcrap, because you're obviously Mr. Know NOTHING At All.
It's not my "theory." It's what was written in the novel, which had to be approved by Lucas, which makes it the truth. Believe what you want, but I think you shouldn't watch these movies if you truely believe that.
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The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Oct 13, 2005 3:43 PM
Ok- let's lay off the flaming - Mr. Know it all, if you're going to comment on blogs, have some respect. Do that often enough and it becomes trolling. sithskywalker6, you flamed another poster with a personal attack. Since you were personally goaded, I'll let it slide with a warning. Flaming and trolling are both bannable offenses, just so you know. Be mindful of the rules of these blogs and message boards, both of you.
Thanks,
DM out
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