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Smugglers Rants
date posted: Nov 30, 2005 9:51 AM
Looking Through New Eyes
We all know the final fate of Anakin Skywalker. The whole focus of Revenge of the Sith was the opportunity to see the whole journey of the Chosen One and view his deeds in the Original Trilogy in a new light.
But it's not only Anakin who is cast in a new light.
Obi-Wan and Yoda come in for some close scrutiny as well, in view of the years between Sith and Hope.
If you think about it, when Luke arrives on Dagobah in Empire, and Yoda plays the fool, there is no doubt about the fact that he will be trained (much like when you realise that all the Stormtroopers on the Death Star were aiming to miss, so the tracking device could lead the Imperials to Yavin 4). Yoda plays this up to the max, to make Luke want it so much more. He knows that Luke, like his father, will want it more if he's told he can't have it. The same, to a degree, could be said of the actions and words of Ben.
But if you think about it, the last Jedi that either Ben or Yoda trained was...Anakin. After a 20 year gap they have the chance to rectify what they believe was their own errors. And the next one was Luke.
Everything that Ben and Yoda say to Luke in regards to the Force is largely 20 year old knowledge. The difference being that Yoda has studied with Qui-Gon, who has become one with the Force and has a different perspective, one that he has imparted to Yoda and Ben.
(Of course, George didn't know this when he wrote Empire back in 1978, 15+ years before he even created Qui-Gon)
So, from a logical point of view, forgetting about real-world facts of when things were written (and bearing in mind Lucas had time to run all these thoughts through the wringer so he could link everything together) we can look at Ben and Yoda in a different way as well.
While we always believed Ben to be deeply knowledgable and wise, he is clutching in the dark in much the same way as Yoda. In fact, to bring Luke with him to Alderaan he employs some questionable tactics - you could say that he allowed Beru and Owen to die, knowing it would be the push to get Luke to leave Tatooine - would the younger Kenobi have done that? When Luke leaves Dagobah to save Han and Leia, Yoda bemoans Luke's actions - "Told you I did, reckless is he." And he was right, Luke was, just like Ben and Anakin before him.
Neither Ben or Yoda knew the way Luke would truly react, and there is the twist.

There was every chance that things could have gone desparately wrong on Bespin, and Luke could have accepted Anakins offer to join him. What then for the Jedi cause? Luke, as a darksider, would have led Vader to Dagobah to kill Yoda, and the Jedi would have truly been extinguished.
Ben and Yoda were flying on a wing and a prayer in regards to training Luke, with nothing like the careful preparation that Palpatine employed to bring back the Sith.
Now how do you view Ben and Yoda?


  Oboe-Wan
Oboe-Wan's Hive of Scum & Villainy
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 10:15 AM
Great Blog!

I respect them even more for their trust in Luke - believing that though they are sending him to certain death he would somehow resist the urge to fall to the darkside that his father succombed to. Plus yoda points out "there is another" so if Luke fails they still can try to train Leia.

I don't know necessarily that he "allowed" Owen & Beru to die so much as that he prevented Luke from being killed or captured.

"And sacrifice Han & Leia?"
"If you honor what they fight for...yes."

Owen & Beru knew what they were getting into when they accepted Luke into their lives & they died protecting him (as did Obi-Wan).

Now i'm not sure if I answered your question!!
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 10:18 AM
Both Yoda and Obi-wan are still operating under 20-year old info as you stated. Both know Luke is the key to defeating the Empire and both know the problems this poses. It is my belief that Yoda/Obi were fearful of what might happen to Luke and therefore to the galaxy. Throughout the PT, both Obi and Ani insist Vader is beyond hope and must be destroyed if the Emperor is to be defeated (whether by Luke or Leia). Neither believes as Luke does (and as Padme) that Vader can be turned back to the good side. Vader had to be defeated, just not the way Yoda and Obi thought. Because of Luke (aided by the teachings of Obi & Yoda), Vader subsided and Anakin returned to defeat his former master.
  Sol Kassar
Ramblings from the Detention Center (Startled)
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 10:22 AM
I believe that Obi-Wan/Yoda learned a great deal more about the Force during their 20 year hiatus. This not only made them wiser and more powerful, but it also gave them back a little of that swagger they were missing after being humbled 20 years earlier.
  Darth_Zero_Tear_of_hate
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 10:23 AM
I don't really think Ben let Owen and Beru die. But this played nice to Ben's needs, because Ben wanted that Luke go with him to Alderann, and being Luke so old it was dificult to leave things behind, as the Jedi way. After the death of Beru and Owen, Luke sees that he really don't has nothing, so he decide to acompany Ben.

Good Blog:D
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 10:34 AM
Thanks for the replies, and I'm glad folks have picked up on the Beru/Owen line.
I really do believe Ben knew they were going to die. If you follow it through to its logical conclusion, he knows they're dead before Luke jets off to see their bodies, so he must have known the danger Owen and Beru were in. If Luke was in danger he wouldn't have let him leave the jawa funeral and fly into a deathtrap. But by seeing his aunt and uncle dead he has no reason to stay - he made it clear to Ben that his loyalties lay with his aunt and uncle. The entire scenario fit well with what Ben wanted - to get Luke away from Tatooine and to begin his training.
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 10:42 AM
I believe that Obi-Wan/Yoda learned a great deal more about the Force during their 20 year hiatus.

Perhaps, but it doesn't seem evident. Both insisted Luke confront Vader. Ben believed he needed to kill Vader and Yoda didn't think Luke could handle the truth yet. Both Yoda and Ben were wrong: Luke didn't have to kill Vader (he needed to do almost the polar opposite) and Luke succeeded before both Vader and Palpatine even knowing the 'truth'. I'm not sure what either learned during their 20-years except that Luke/Leia were important to the Jedi and the Republic's survival. They did their best but did not appear to impart anything new, in fact, they held more back.
  Jonspacher
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 11:06 AM
As for Owen & Beru's death, I imagine that Obi-Wan was able to feel out via the force & sensed that they were already dead, otherwise I'm sure he would have tried to prevent their deaths. I think his "Wait Luke!..." may have been a 'wait for me, it's too dangerous to go alone, the empire may still be there.' But what's the guy going to do if Luke doesn't stop, force push him face first into the sand?

In regards to the training, I imagine that Yoda & Obi-Wan both stressed how important it is NEVER to cross to the dark side, and ultimately that helped Luke when he faced Vader.

  SkywalkerAndVader
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 12:11 PM
But still, Luke is the last of the jedi, facing two Sith Lords, i think a little dark side rage is allowed...but your still right I'm not saying your wrong.

And about Yoda, my friend seems to think that it was Dark of yoda to hide the fact that Darth Vader (Anakin) was his father, but Yoda tells him that he hadn't completeled his training and he wasn't ready for the burden yet, so really it was good of yoda to to put all that on his back.

Right?
  SkywalkerAndVader
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 12:12 PM
to not put that on his back*
  Darth Kevinmhk
date Posted: Nov 30, 2005 6:02 PM
1. Luke wanna go to Bespin, and actually nothing could stop him.
Yoda would not physically block him, right? It's Luke own free will,
Luke, and the others, have to accept the consequence of that choice.
If Yoda could not talk Luke out, then he could only wish him gd luck and
remember his training, right?

2. Jedi doesnt plan everything like the Sith. The Force allow Yoda & Obi-Wan
to survive, allow the twins to survive, allow Luke to be trained someday. If the
will of the Force wanted darkness to win and light lost forever, so be it.
Jedi submit themselves to the Force.
  amidala449
date Posted: Dec 01, 2005 10:19 AM
I'm sure Obi-Wan and Yoda weren't really sure what Luke would do when he was confronted by both Vader and the Emreror. Yoda thought he was reckless and not ready, and Luke himself said that he couldn't kill his own father. Obi-Wan told Luke that he must face Vader, So he knew that Luke had a weakness for Vader. We know Luke didn't turn to the dark side. And if Vader hadn't killed thEmperor, the Emperor would have killed Luke. So nothing would have changed. The empire would have kept on ruling, until they could train Leia. But lucky for them, Vader was weak. It was his weakness for Padme that turned him to the dark side, and it was his weakness for Luke that turned him back to the good side. Thus bringing balance back to the force.
  cestus183
date Posted: Dec 02, 2005 3:25 AM
Now they seem a little too hasty in their decisions, not even calculating the risks first. And the Force should still be clouded then.
Still, the part about Vader not having any good left in him is still debatable, because we saw in Ep III what he was willing to do for the Sith & has clearly indicated his loyalty is to the Sith ("From my point of view the Jedi are evil!" "I hate you!")
If i was either one of them, i would've doubted about good still in Vader too.
  Ello137
Apocalypse Later
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 5:53 PM
In this new light, they seem in some ways even more wise, able to keep their cool and faith under pressure. But Ben has one more aspect: Luke looks so much like his father. Not literally, but when he leaves, Anakin shines through. And Ben still loves Anakin. That's why he doesn't wig out when Luke leaves. B/c he's seen Anakin leave before. And anakin always comes back.
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