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Far, Faraway
date posted: Jan 13, 2006 1:39 PM  |  updated: Feb 11, 2007 7:16 PM
Was Yoda Wrong?
While we're all anxiously awaiting the release of Knights of the Old Republic #1 on Jan. 25 (me, too -- can't wait to see the final product), I'll give you a topic. Discuss...

A theme I've always been interested in from the original movies is the tension between the heart and the larger mission -- as evidenced by Yoda's "You must not go" speech, in which he suggests Luke risks all that his friends are fighting for if he abandons his training early.

Which brought up a point I've heavily debated -- at least, back with the philosphy students in grad school who thought Star Wars was a subject worthy of argument: Was Yoda wrong?

My contention has always been that if Luke does not go to Cloud City and learn his true identity from Vader, he falls to the Dark Side in Episode VI.

The logic is simply this: It's the hand. Luke is driven to a berserker rage -- and is broken from it only by seeing the hand he's chopped off, looking at his own, and making the appropriate connection, as he is finally able to interpret the vision from The Tree on Dagobah.

Let's look at the alternative, if Luke stays on Dagobah:

* Yes, Han is taken by Fett, anyway. Score one for Yoda.

* Yes, Lando is still able to help Leia escape -- and it is perhaps not even as close a call since they didn't have to pick up Luke. So Yoda is right, here, too.

* Luke finishes his training -- and, finally "ready for the burden," he is told Vader's identity by Yoda.

* He sallies off for the final confrontation (having freed Han in the interim). Perhaps he hopes he can redeem Vader, as in our "reality." But he's still driven into a berserker rage, because the ploy of turning Leia to the Dark Side still works.

* Only, now, when he lops off Dad's wing, there's no pause to reflect. He's still got two fine hands -- or, if he still got injured on the sand skiff, he doesn't connect it to The Tree vision. Without this pause, he strikes Vader down -- and falls to the Dark Side.

Thus, while Yoda is right about the basics, he's wrong about the ultimate end. The confrontation before Luke was "ready for the burden" was a necessary precondition for his own salvation -- and for Vader's redemption. Without the very tangible symbol of his and Vader's similarity -- the gloved hand -- I'm not sure the vision of The Tree resonates nearly enough to save him. It's too theoretical, if you will.

This may seem a very simple, self-evident thing -- maybe it's even a settled matter in the community, I don't know. But I think it has a good deal to say about the fallibility of the Jedi, and in particular the tension between the Living Force and the Unifying Force, as I see them. One's about the little things and one's about the Big Picture -- but you need the little things to make the Big Picture make sense.

Anybody have a similar/different take on this? I don't think there's a right or wrong answer, but I personally like to think this was the interpretation that Lucas had in mind...

  Obi-Tyler
Master Obi-Tyler's Blog Archive.
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 1:46 PM
I don't think Yoda was wrong. I think that Luke could have fought the dark side either way. Though yes the whole point that he stopped was b/c he made the connection with his hand and Vader's hand just like you can make the connection that 2 + 2 obviously = 4. Though I think that Luke could have fought it either way. If he was trained by Yoda I think that he could have a better chance. I mean many jedi killed sith but you never saw them turn to the dark side. So why would Luke turn just b/c he killed another sith? Even if it was his father.
John Jackson Miller
Far, Faraway
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 2:05 PM
OK, but I have to wonder if killing flesh and blood, knowingly, is the same as killing Just Another Sith, when it comes to karma or Dark Side points or what have you. I'm not sure it is.

But then again, certainly, that is what Yoda and Obi-Wan were prepared to have him do
Hedec Ga
War Journal of Hedec Ga
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 2:07 PM
But Vader didn't need to die as Obi-Wan was always fond of thinking. Anakin WAS the Chosen One. He didn't need to be defeated, he needed to be saved. I think that if Luke had listened to Yoda, he would have "compassion" but only in that hollow self-righteous way that many Jedi seem to have it. They have pity which is kind of pride turned around backwards. It wasn't until Luke realized how close HE had come to fallen, that he had true compassion on his father and was able to forgive Anakin for his mistakes and also forgive himself for giving into anger.
Hedec Ga
War Journal of Hedec Ga
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 2:09 PM
The Jedi "of old" tended to throw around words like love and sacrifice without really understanding what they meant. And how could they? They were not allowed to have any connection to any loved ones period. I think that was a major flaw of the Jedi. We have to be willing to do the right thing, regardless of familial ties, but a lot of times, we can't appreciate those descisions until we have people we care about. Being able to put ourselves in someone else's shoes, that's what brings compassion. Not saying "Well, I'm better than you, so I pity you." which I think a lot of Jedi seemed guilty of.
  General Tarfful
The Kachirho Daily Journal
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 4:05 PM
I definitely think that people (including myself) tend to give some of the Jedi more credit than they deserve. From the brief glimpse we got of the old Jedi in Episode IV, I think people tended to promote them to incredible mythical status, this perfect order that kept peace throughout the galaxy. Episode III, though, showed that they really had a number of flaws, mainly their hubris.

So now, when I go back and watch the OT, I don't think of Luke as so much the foolish young lad disobeying the wise old masters. Rather, he's kind of broken of old traditions, given the Jedi a new start, and cleared them of a lot of the overconfidence and flaws that brought down the old Order.
  General Tarfful
The Kachirho Daily Journal
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 4:05 PM
As for this specific case, it's a hard one. I think the mechanical-hand part was huge, though. If Luke hadn't seen so much of himself in this Sith Lord, he might not have realized how close he was coming to becoming that Sith Lord himself. Hmm... tough one, indeed...
Hedec Ga
War Journal of Hedec Ga
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 8:05 PM
I totally agree with the General up there. People have elevated Jedi to these mythical superbeings that can do no wrong and that's just not true. I, too, have a lot more respect for Luke and the things that he's tried to do in the order. Still not perfect, but on the right track.

Sorry to be so off-topic, JJM :8}
TheJediHistorian
The Jedi-a-Day Calendar
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 9:05 PM
I like the questions being raised here.

There is a fundamental assumption to the original hypothesis, however. Mr. Miller, you assume that Luke's completed training would not, in some way, have prepared him to confront Vader while ignoring the siren call of the Emperor's prodding's (and Luke's own fears), killing Vader in a fit of rage, and falling to the dark side.

You assume that the only thing that could have "broken" Luke's "berserker rage" was the experimental connection between the vision at the cave and his and Vader's mechanical hands.

(continued below)
TheJediHistorian
The Jedi-a-Day Calendar
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 9:05 PM
Could not have Yoda's full training broken Luke's rage?

Could not have the perspective provided by a true Master's undivided attention brought Luke to face Vader and the Emperor with the right approach to reach the same result (Vader's redemptive destruction of the Emperor)?

Could not the time spent in introspective reflection over the vision at the cave (and perhaps a less abrupt revelation of Luke's lineage) brought Luke to have the same compassion as (or a more stolid compassion than) he had for Vader on Endor and after bringing Vader down out of sheer survival instincts (sure, those instincts were egged on by fear for Leia and Luke's own life)?

(continued below)
TheJediHistorian
The Jedi-a-Day Calendar
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 9:06 PM
Could not have Yoda's full training broken Luke's rage?

Could not have the perspective provided by a true Master's undivided attention brought Luke to face Vader and the Emperor with the right approach to reach the same result (Vader's redemptive destruction of the Emperor)?

Could not the time spent in introspective reflection over the vision at the cave (and perhaps a less abrupt revelation of Luke's lineage) brought Luke to have the same compassion as (or a more stolid compassion than) he had for Vader on Endor and after bringing Vader down out of sheer survival instincts (sure, those instincts were egged on by fear for Leia and Luke's own life)?

(continued below)
TheJediHistorian
The Jedi-a-Day Calendar
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 9:08 PM
Sorry about the double post. The stupid 750 character limit is driving me crazy!

I believe the answer is... maybe. If those things were truly Yoda's intent all along.

One could certainly argue (and one would have me as an ally in the debate) that Yoda and Obi-Wan intended to craft, to hone Luke into a weapon against the Emperor. Yes, they knew that Luke would have to face Vader and that Luke would have to face the same choice Anakin faced years before, yet they also knew that the Emperor was the true evil, the linchpin in restoring balance. I don't doubt that in the backs of their minds, Yoda and Obi-Wan were debating (just as fans have for some time) whether it was Luke who was the Chosen One, or it was indeed Anakin.
TheJediHistorian
The Jedi-a-Day Calendar
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 9:09 PM
I don't think either Yoda or Obi-Wan expected Anakin to return and redeem himself by restoring balance to the Force by giving THE Sith Lord the ole' heave-ho. Certainly Obi-Wan felt he was beyond redemption; being "more machine than man." I don't think Yoda's training was intended to engender in Luke a compassion for Vader and a strategy to turn Vader from the dark side and against his Master. No, I think they wanted Luke to tear through the both; a ballistic missile from the fallen defenders of truth and justice.

So, would Luke have fallen to the dark side if he had stayed on Dagobah as Yoda and Obi-Wan desired? That all depends on what they wanted Luke to do... and if Luke would have seen through their schemes or not... ;)
John Jackson Miller
Far, Faraway
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 10:28 PM
Interesting points, Historian. There's irony in that, If Obi-Wan and Yoda had thought to program Luke to go and "do what must be done," then they didn't know him very well. For as poor a Jedi candidate as he might have been, he's an even worse candidate for a patricidal assassin.

Here's an orphan who's viewed his father as a mythological figure -- first a spacer, then a Jedi. Suddenly he learns he's alive. Was there enough time in the world to train Luke to look past emotion and to use all means necessary against his father? (Ironically, Leia would have been a better weapon for them, since learning Vader's identity is, for her, more distasteful than it was the answer to a childhood mystery...)
John Jackson Miller
Far, Faraway
date Posted: Jan 13, 2006 10:32 PM
Ultimately, as someone said above, the key would be whether Yoda prepared him to approach Vader with compassion -- or with a coldhearted pity. If the former, then, yes, redemption and victory could have been gained. If the latter, I think he fails. Maybe my premise betrays my underlying assumption - that Yoda and Obi-Wan would have continued to insist that he not take chances.

As I've just suggested, he probably goes his own way, regardless. So the question is really whether training can help him resist rage over Vader's threat to Leia. Not sure how that happens, since Yoda basically said he'd trained him all he could -- and Luke still flipped out. One more class on "hiding your feelings" perhaps?
  Padawan_Katis
Whispers From the Jedi Archives
date Posted: Jan 14, 2006 9:00 AM
You brought up some interesting points! I think that if Luke had stayed and finished his training and became a full-fledged Jedi Knight, when he finally found out that Vader was his father, it wouldn't had mattered. Luke probably would have killed Vader anyway. Luke would have come to realize that his duty as a Jedi and to the whole galaxy came before the fact that he had to kill his own Father. In the end duty would have won out.

One more class on "hiding your feelings" perhaps?

Probably. I think that part of the Jedi Training is the most difficult. Alot of Jedi seem to struggle with that one.
eddie
Obsessive Fanboy Eddie and his Timeline Chronicles
date Posted: Jan 14, 2006 1:37 PM
I just like to comment that we are very lucky to have you as a writer for DH!!!!!!
John Jackson Miller
Far, Faraway
date Posted: Jan 14, 2006 5:53 PM
Thanks very much, Eddie!
  RojoTrooper
Star Wars Recycled Art Project
date Posted: Jan 15, 2006 12:05 AM
The thing I love about Star Wars and George Lucas... He leaves it up to your own interpretion... You can project your own experiences and values upon Luke, Anakin/Vader, Obi Wan, and Yoda...or any Star Wars character and come up with a completely viewpoint or outcome..
Anakin and Luke Skywalker are on parallel paths... Yoda knows a Jedi Master can turn to the Darkside (Anakin, Dooku)..
  RojoTrooper
Star Wars Recycled Art Project
date Posted: Jan 15, 2006 12:06 AM
Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to turn/redeem Vader from the Darkside, not kill him...
If Luke would have witnessed his "friend's" death... the Rage..would have pushed Luke's balance..to Darkside... (Death of Anakin's Mom, Qui Gon, and Padme)... the Emperor and Vader would have Succeded.
Yoda, Obi Wan, Vader, and the Emperor saw the big picture.. and Luke and Leia's significance to Anakin. And until Luke was ready..Yoda and Obi Wan would protect him. I think the grove and the hand were Luke's realization moments...
I always wondered what would have happened if Luke did join Vader to rule the Galaxy "as Father and Son??"
THX,
CE
  RojoTrooper
Star Wars Recycled Art Project
date Posted: Jan 15, 2006 12:09 AM
Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to turn/redeem Vader from the Darkside, not kill him...
If Luke would have witnessed his "friend's" death... the Rage..would have pushed Luke's balance..to Darkside... (Death of Anakin's Mom, Qui Gon, and Padme)... the Emperor and Vader would have Succeded.
Yoda, Obi Wan, Vader, and the Emperor saw the big picture.. and Luke and Leia's significance to Anakin. And until Luke was ready..Yoda and Obi Wan would protect him.
Luke's realization that he too could be vulnerable...or he "Steps into a Larger World"..are with his confrontation with Vader..and the knowledge he gains..and the hand he loses..along with his Vader's lightsaber..
  RojoTrooper
Star Wars Recycled Art Project
date Posted: Jan 15, 2006 12:09 AM
I always wondered what would have happened if Luke did join Vader to rule the Galaxy "as Father and Son??"
THX,
CE
  RojoTrooper
Star Wars Recycled Art Project
date Posted: Jan 15, 2006 12:10 AM
Sorry John..about the blog repeats..
  JodaLewski
Consular, Sentinel, or Guardian?
date Posted: Jan 15, 2006 11:53 AM
Great blog topic JJM. i think the fake hand is luke's wake up call. w/o that, i'm not sure the training alone would have been enough for him to survive the emperor. even w/ the the needed training, i think luke succumbs to the dark side by striking down vader because he fails to see the connection btwn their paths. and even if he does kill vader, and doesn't fall, could he possibly defeat Sidious one on one? i think the answer to that is a definite no. in the end, he either turns or dies, just as vader says in episode V.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 4:37 PM
Well, I think Yoda was not wrong, but there was not really a chance for him to be exactly right. And that's a good thing. Lemme 'splain.

Remember the dialogue from ROTJ - Luke is gently demanding answers from Yoda after getting confirmation that Vader is his father. Yoda asks if Vader told him, and Luke says yes...
Y - Unexpected this is, and unfortunate...
L - Unfortunate that I know the truth?
Y - No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face
him
... that incomplete was your training. Not
ready for the burden were you.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 4:38 PM
When Yoda said "You must not go", he meant "you must not go NOW - wait, until you are more mature in the Force to deal with it. And I believe he was right - Luke was nearly overcome by the revelation. It could have gone badly 3 different ways - Luke could have joined Vader, Luke could have been destroyed by Vader, or Luke could have fallen to his doom. After all, why do we think Luke let go of that platform? It wasn't to land in an air duct, it was simply to get away from Vader, and he had no other choices left.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 4:38 PM
In a sense, he was saved by..whatever you may think he was saved by - providence, the Force, divine intervention, predestination, luck...but he could have died right then and there. The meeting with Vader was nearly a disaster because he wasn't ready.

Later, Yoda believes he is ready. And Yoda nudges him in this direction in his final scene:
Y- No more training do you require...
L- Then I am a Jedi?
Y- .. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You
must confront Vader...


The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 4:40 PM
So Yoda is telling him to do exactly what he told him not to do in ESB.

Why now? Because now is the time. Then, it was too soon, and nearly had dire consequences for the Galaxy. So Yoda was not wrong, but was thankfully never proven just how right he could have been. Luke prevailed, but time was wasted, and damage was done. It was the hard way to get where Yoda needed him to go.

In the end, it proved to aid Luke in the right moment. But that moment might have never happened in the first place had Luke not survived his first meeting with Vader, either in body or soul..
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 4:49 PM
Another important, somewhat relevant idea is that Luke's true calling here was to confront Vader. Notice that never in Yoda's verbiage do we see the word "kill". We do see Obi-Wan acknowledging that Vader must be "destroyed", and I do believe Obi-Wan had less faith in the prophecy than Yoda at this point (Ironic, because it was Obi-Wan pointing out the Prophecy in Episode III to Yoda and Mace, and it was Yoda questioning its validity).
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 4:50 PM
Obi-Wan is disappointed in Luke's unwillingness to kill Vader. "Then the Emperor has already won," says Kenobi. But Yoda all along only pushes Luke to confront Vader. That is the key, and the difference between the meeting in ESB and ROTJ - Luke went there to kill in ESB, but was only there to confront and redeem in ROTJ...

So I believe whereas Obi-Wan had doubts, Yoda had the plan all along, but Luke rushing off before he understood his true role clearly spelled disaster. Yoda can not fortell everyting, but he can see a screwup in the brew.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 5:07 PM
(sorry to write so much in reply by the way, but I'm wrapping up..)
Think of Yoda as a parent/teacher for Luke. Think of the Force as driving a car. The parent may warn the child "look, I'm going to teach you to drive, but you can't hop in the car and just take off whenever you want just yet. You could have an accident, get hurt, or killed." The child, emboldened by progress, sneaks the car out anyway. And in a moment brought on by inexperience, mixes the gas and brake and smacks a telephone pole, and lives. There's the totalled car. And perhaps injuries. And one seriously bruised ego. But, now the child is more understanding of the dangers, and better for it. BUT - was the parent was wrong to warn, or to try to stop the child?
John Jackson Miller
Far, Faraway
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 5:40 PM
Interesting points, Moose. And this comparison of Yoda's and Obi-Wan's different approaches brings to mind another question for everyone: What Would Qui-Gon Do?

I'm of the belief that the "Living Force"-conscious Qui-Gon is much closer to Luke in terms of "world view" than he was to Obi-Wan or Yoda, or would have been to Anakin -- and that definitely would have influenced the advice he would have given (had his ethereal self dropped by Dagobah when Luke was there). I know what I think he would have said to Luke, but let's hear from you guys first...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 16, 2006 7:13 PM
In a way, Obi-Wan echoed some of what his old Master would have said, from the very beginning. "Trust your feelings." "Let go." "You must do what you feel is right."

And yet there was post-mortem Obi-Wan warning Luke not to go. He's definitely an amalgam of his master and his own experiences. But I think some of what Obi-Wan says to Luke in his efforts to unlock the boy's early potential is very much Qui-Gon speaking as Qui-Gon had once to Anakin.."Trust your instincts."

Perhaps Qui-Gon would not have been as much in agreement with Yoda and Obi-Wan at that moment. But then again, I think the verdict is a little fuzzy as to if total reliance on the "living force" is a good thing. It is..eventually...but man is it a wild ride.
RyanKaufman
Look, sir! Zombies!
date Posted: Jan 17, 2006 11:08 AM
Clearly Luke triumphs by reaching a state of compassion for his father. And Luke's compassion draws out long-dormant Anakin.

The training we see Luke receive on Dagobah is very connected to nature and life. Yoda talks about rocks, mud, sticks...

I think that eventually Luke could have reached an even deeper state of compassion; and been better prepared to deal with Vader.

BUT, I despair that Yoda and Obi-Wan would have ever told him, instead using Luke to finish off their ancient agenda of destroying the Sith.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 17, 2006 12:32 PM
BUT, I despair that Yoda and Obi-Wan would have ever told him, instead using Luke to finish off their ancient agenda of destroying the Sith.

Somehow, I think that was a lesson that Yoda learned...or rather unlearned what he had learned. It was Yoda who experienced firsthand what it was to attack the Sith from without, using force. I believe he learned what Obi-Wan had not learned fully, given his experiences with Maul, Dooku and finally Vader. You can't destroy the Sith from without, using violence. They have to be destroyed from within, using compassion.

So I think what Obi-Wan began, Yoda finished properly. And perhaps even Obi-Wan finally understood, in the end.
Rainbow Droideka
Aren't you a little short for an egg?
date Posted: Jan 18, 2006 6:59 PM
Taking a second to make a late comment; I think I agree with DM in regards to the original question.

Yoda can't (in general) actually predict the future, so he was speaking in generalities of what he feared would happen - he didn't literally mean "this and that WILL happen." And I think the odds were on the side of him being right. Like Moose said, it all worked out through luck/providence/destiny, not through Luke consistently making reliable decisions.

Which is not to say the whole thing doesn't hinge in the end on Luke making good decisions. But I think he made some bad ones first, and that's what Yoda was warning about.
  SlaveoftheForce
Enter the 36th Chamber
date Posted: Feb 20, 2007 5:00 PM
I think it all hinges on what exactly the immortality in the Force that Yoda, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon attained involves. I tend to think of it as a cosmic awakening first in the physical world, and ultimately culminating in a willing dissipation of the physical form to the spiritual plane. At this point, I would think that all such people would have opened their minds/hearts to the entire universe.
  SlaveoftheForce
Enter the 36th Chamber
date Posted: Feb 20, 2007 5:01 PM
I've been thinking lately that all the things Obi-Wan and Yoda say to Luke in ESB and ROTJ are said in full knowledge just how much like his father he was, but just how compassionate he was like his mother... and they said what they said because they knew he'd go against authority figures when his heart felt it right. Rather than being "wrong" it was the wisdom of the teacher to let the student do what he would... and having complete trust in the Force that things would work out for the best.
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