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I was a Teenage Jedi
date posted: Aug 10, 2007 6:34 PM
Replacing a Sith Apprentice
"Always two there are, the master and the apprentice."

When these words are uttered at the conclusion of The Phantom Menace, it is clear to viewers that Darth Sidious will be replacing his apprentice, Darth Maul.

However, the word "always" means there should be no break. Indeed, is it not true that at the moment this line is spoken, there is in fact only one Sith?

The Phantom Menace certainly seems to indicate that. After all, we've seen no new Sith apprentice emerge. However, a closer examination of dates says that Count Dooku might have assumed the mantle of Darth Tyranus very near to Maul's death.

We'll start by laying out the timeline. The Phantom Menace occurs in 32 B.B.Y.; Attack of the Clones occurs in 22 B.B.Y., ten years later. We know from Anakin's age (he's nine during TPM, but ten in the final scene, and twenty in AOTC) that we're actually working with one year and probably a couple months; it'd be like if TPM was in January of 1992 and AOTC in June of 2002.

Now, turning to the AOTC script, we have the following:

OBI-WAN: You mentioned growth acceleration...

LAMA SU: Oh yes, it's essential. Otherwise, a mature clone would take a lifetime to grow. Now, we can do it in half the time. Those items you saw on the parade ground were started ten years ago, when Sifo-Dyas first placed the order, and they're already mature.


So, the order for clones was placed by Sifo-Dyas ten years prior to AOTC--this would make it months at the most after TPM.

Also in the script, we have this:

OBI-WAN: Then you must know Master Sifo-Dyas?
...
JANGO FETT: Master who?

OBI-WAN: Sifo-Dyas. Is he not the Jedi who hired you for this job?

JANGO FETT: Never heard of him.

OBI-WAN: Really.

JANGO FETT: I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.


This is important: Dooku was going by the name of Tyranus when he recruited Jango. This means he had already become a Sith substantially prior to when the Kaminoans began the first batch of clones ten years prior--he had to have the time to recruit Jango Fett for the job.

We also know that Dooku left the Jedi Order around the time of the Battle of Naboo, and that the death of his former apprentice, Qui-Gon Jinn, proved to be the final straw for him. Since Dooku is the one who erased the records of Kamino in the Jedi Archives, he was in league with the Sith. Was he a Sith yet? Well, we know for certain that he was working with them shortly after TPM.

And now, the kicker:

LAMA SU: Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. He's still a leading member
of the Jedi Council, is he not?

OBI-WAN: Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago.


Here, it seems, Obi-Wan is slightly off with his dates. Well, wouldn't be the first time ("I haven't got by the name of Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born.").

In truth, Sifo-Dyas had to be killed a little over ten years ago, because he was not a "leading member of the Jedi Council" during TPM--though he was when he placed the order.

The reason this is important is because Labyrinth of Evil reveals that Count Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas as his final act of initiation into the Sith Order.

That's right--Dooku passed his final test to become the Sith Apprentice prior to Maul's death.

What does that mean for Darth Maul? That his mission to track down the Jedi on Tatooine was a fool's errand--how can one explain the Sith being revealed to the Jedi over such a small goal? Darth Maul was put into harm's way to make way for his replacement, the far more useful Darth Tyranus.

Palpatine needed Count Dooku to head up the Confederacy of Independent Systems--there was no way Darth Maul was up to that task. Indeed, it seems Maul's sole purpose was to announce to the galaxy that the Sith had returned.

And it makes perfect sense that Palpatine would choose a showy, highly skilled warrior covered in Sith tattoos to make this declaration--the Jedi would be looking for similar warrior-Sith and overlook him and his political mechanizations.

Darth Maul was replaced before he ever met Obi-Wan Kenobi in battle.

  SithLord, Darth Chris
Journey through the Expanded Universe
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 7:31 PM
Well, I've always assumed that the Sith would always have more than one apprentice.

Indeed, it seems Maul's sole purpose was to announce to the galaxy that the Sith had returned. And it makes perfect sense that Palpatine would choose a showy, highly skilled warrior covered in Sith tattoos to make this declaration--the Jedi would be looking for a similar warrior-SIth and overlook him and his political mechanizations.

I have never thought of it that way. It is a great idea to use a person who outwardly even looks like a Sith and then the next one be more of a gentleman who's only apparent beef with the Jedi is the fact that he left the Order.
  SithLord, Darth Chris
Journey through the Expanded Universe
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 7:32 PM
Great blog!
  Revan996
The squrriels and curls of a sith lord wanabee
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 7:51 PM
hum the sith are so sithy
Darth_Hiram
A Journey into The Force
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 8:15 PM
Good blog! Interesting that the clones were started just when Anakin entered the scene in TPM. He was ten, which is when the clones were developed. Sidious' plans were indeed a long time in the works. I think he sensed his new apprentice in Anakin at that age, and work was done to quicken the clones to time things perfectly.
Good thoughts!
  21212121212
"So be it.......21212121212"
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 8:23 PM
Great blog! I think the reason why the clones wre bred before Anakin's arrival to Coruscant, was because Sifo-Dyas saw far into the future and saw that the Republic was in danger of the new droid army and the Confederacy, so he felt like he should prepare an army for when the time came.

I like your thoughts!
  21212121212
"So be it.......21212121212"
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 8:24 PM
Oops! I made a mistake!

Were bred not wre
  Captain Peabody
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 9:01 PM
Huh. Neat to see how far in advance Sidious planned out his machinations....

Good blog.
Darth_Hiram
A Journey into The Force
date Posted: Aug 10, 2007 9:17 PM
I also find it interesting how Sifo-Dyas sounds much like Sidious when you say it. hmmm ... things to ponder.
Master Ki-Aaron-Mundi
I was a Teenage Jedi
date Posted: Aug 11, 2007 12:31 AM
Thanks for the comments, all!

I have never thought of it that way. It is a great idea to use a person who outwardly even looks like a Sith and then the next one be more of a gentleman who's only apparent beef with the Jedi is the fact that he left the Order
I'll admit, this was a concept someone pointed out to me, so I can't take full credit for it. But it makes sense that Palpatine would select a flashy apprentice to distract the Jedi while he hid in the shadows as a normal being.

I think he sensed his new apprentice in Anakin at that age
"And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest."
--Senator Palpatine
Master Ki-Aaron-Mundi
I was a Teenage Jedi
date Posted: Aug 11, 2007 12:33 AM
I also find it interesting how Sifo-Dyas sounds much like Sidious when you say it
I've heard that originally his name was "Sido-Dyas," an obvious alias for Sidious, and that Mr. Lucas made a typo ("D" is right next to "F") somewhere in the script. Upon discovering it, he decided to keep it and make Sifo-Dyas into an actual character.
the fragrant wookiee
The Dark Side Databank
date Posted: Aug 11, 2007 8:37 AM
I'd always got the impression that Sidious had been working on Dooku for a while before Dooku actually decided to leave the Order.
And the 'New Essential Chronology' suggests that Sidious had begun Maul's training before he actually did away with Plagueis.

In the LotF books Lumiya states that as well as Sith Apprentices, there were also Sith Candidates. That is to say, individuals who have the potential to become Apprentices but haven't yet been chosen to do so. Lumiya says that Vergere was one such.

Considering that Vergere left the galaxy only two years after TPM, it's possible that she and Dooku were Candidates at the same time, but it was Dooku who Sidious chose to become his Apprentice.
the fragrant wookiee
The Dark Side Databank
date Posted: Aug 11, 2007 8:42 AM
As for Sifo-Dyas being 'a leading member of the Jedi Council' it could come down to one of those 'certain point of view' things.

Sifo-Dyas has been stated as having been on the Council, but EU sources would suggest that it would have to have been earlier than 44 BBY, long before he ordered the clone army.

However, since Sifo-Dyas was ordering the clones without the knowledge or consent of the Order it is possible that he just pretended to still be on the Council in order to seem more legitimate to Lama Su.


Great blog, by the way!
It's really got the old brain cells turning over.
DJ Maul: Got Feet?
DJ Maul's Dancin' Cantina Party
date Posted: Aug 11, 2007 7:33 PM
excellent deductions here, veery interesting indeed!

the theories still abound on just how far in advance Palpatine planned to convert Anakin and of course there is the rumors that Palpatine and / or Plageous were the ones RESPONSIBLE for Anakins CREATION in The Force (again, NO proof on this so far) so perhaps ALL the so called "Sith apprentices" before Anakin were shams in Palpatines larger, ultimate plan to destroy The Jedi.

GREAT blog! well done!
  Master Deireanach
date Posted: Aug 13, 2007 7:25 AM
I see Palps as a Russian Chess champ, he's always thinking ten moves into the future and uses his pawns to perfection. He had Maul as a weapon, nothing more he was solely made for combat. He had his new apprentice (Dooku) already in the wings as his diplomat, knowing Anakin would replace him and become his true apprentice. It's awesome to watch Bane's plan come to fruition 1000 years after it was set in motion.
  DarthPlaguies99
date Posted: Aug 17, 2007 4:42 PM
very well thought out. I thought about it myself. I think the expanded universe gets so crazy sometimes with so many people putting their input in. I thinks Palpatine was a true mastermind....one of the greatest Sith ever. He had Tyranus kill Sifo-Dyas, use the name to get clone army started....plus if the Jedi got wind, all they got is a name that goes no where. As far as the Plagueis creating Anakin, well lets assume where Anakin was created was a secret even from his apprentice, Sidious. He seems somewhat suprised by Anakin force ability on Naboo.

Like someone said he thought ten moves ahead, if Maul ends up dead, I got Tyranus in the wings....who he probably would have had whack Maul anyhow.
Master Ki-Aaron-Mundi
I was a Teenage Jedi
date Posted: Aug 20, 2007 4:57 PM
Thanks for the comments!

Like someone said he thought ten moves ahead, if Maul ends up dead, I got Tyranus in the wings....who he probably would have had whack Maul anyhow
That's the big question--was Dooku just waiting in the wings? Or was Maul intentionally removed (indirectly, of course, but intentionally nonetheless) to make way for Tyranus?

Also, very enlightening comments, the fragrant wookiee. I agree with everything you said, and hadn't thought about Sifo-Dyas lying about being on the Council. Good point.
  Rogue Jedi Outcast
date Posted: Sep 10, 2007 12:38 PM
I think he did away with Darth Maul on purpose. Maul's usefulness was coming to an end, so he had to find a way to get rid of him. He knows how to plan things in advance, and he knew his appretice's personality traits well since he raised him, so he created Maul to be the Sith that the Jedi would expect. Sidious knew his apprentice was overconfident and impatiant, traits that tend to be fatal in Sith. I imagine he knew Darth Maul would not last long because of these, so he made him up to be flashy, super loyal to the point of death, and obsessed with killing Jedi. He was intentially made this way, expendable. Sidious knew what he was doing when he sent Maul to Naboo.
  Lord Tyranus67
date Posted: Nov 03, 2007 5:28 PM
What a great blog!

Responding to the idea that there are two Sith & Sidious used Maul.

It is a firm rule that there only be two. Obviously, if one dies, there is one but that is a very temporary situation & not the point of the rule of two.

cont.

  Lord Tyranus67
date Posted: Nov 03, 2007 5:28 PM
Also, the rule applies to Sith Lords - not to Dark Side practictioners. Numerous examples exist besides what's mentioned above, e.g. Mara Jade & The Hand. Typically, these non-Sith Dark Side users were only trained to know certain aspects of the Force, as was the case with Mara. This way, they are useful without being a threat.

Regarding Sidious getting rid of Maul, although I have no doubt that Dooku was more versatile but it makes not sense to use Maul *only* for the purposes of "letting the universe know" - that was the last thing he wanted.
Master Ki-Aaron-Mundi
I was a Teenage Jedi
date Posted: Nov 03, 2007 7:17 PM
Lord Tyranus67, thanks for the reply!

Regarding Sidious getting rid of Maul... it makes not sense to use Maul *only* for the purposes of "letting the universe know" - that was the last thing he wanted
I have to disagree with you here. Maul said, "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge." I just thought TPM indicated that Sidious wasn't hiding the Sith's presence anymore--and the reason would be that with a tattooed Sith like Maul running around, the Jedi wouldn't be looking for a politician/Sith Lord.
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