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 | My most controversial post yet! |
 A while ago, I saw a post on a starwars.com blog about a book on popular culture which said that TESB was the film that defined "Generation X." The author forgot about its predecessor ANH, which really was the definitive film of the post WWII era. This inspired a politically incorrect observation that has been festering in my craw for a long time and one that I've been reluctant to talk about because, well, it's not going to win me any popularity points.
If a fan genuinely considers TESB his or her favorite of the SW films, that's fine. I love TESB. It's a great film, one of the finest sequels ever made. But I've had it with the fandom peanut gallery, the media, et al. elevating TESB to a mile high pedestal above the other SW films. Or how it's almost become predictable that someone needs to say TESB is his or her favorite or the best of the series. Often, it's for specious, even downright dumb reasons ("it's great because it's...dark!"). Some have even taken it to a point where they consider TESB the only good SW film, while the others are wretched junk.
I cannot understand how anyone could luuuuuuurrrrrve TESB and dismiss or even despise the other SW films. There really isn't a tremendous amount of difference among the films in terms of quality. You might like one SW film better than another and it is entirely subjective, but we're not talking about the difference between 2001: A Space Odyssey and Plan 9 From Outer Space either. Sure it probably covers some of the juiciest parts of the OT cycle. But there's still loads of special effects. There's still comic bookish dialogue (which suits me fine). There's still all of the stuff that's in every single SW flick. You either appreciate them or you don't.
In any case, TESB was not immediately hailed as a great cinematic achievement. The majority of critics at the time liked it and audiences enjoyed it, but there was a lot of talk about the cliffhanger ending. Today people appreciate that sort of thing more than they once did. "Fellowship of the Ring" and "The Two Towers" kind of just stopped instead of having a neat ending and no one seemed to mind. TESB's rep grew in the '90s as fans, who were able to look at the film in the context of ROTJ, appreciated the direction the story took while some simply just thought it was as close to "Pulp Fiction" or "Resevoir Dogs" as SW ever got.
Over time though it seemed to me TESB's rep was at the expense of the other SW films, which isn't fair. As good as TESB is, it needed ANH to introduce the characters and universe (or, if you will, the entire PT if you watch in that order). In fact it was ANH that made the majority of filmgoers of the OT era fall in love with Luke and the crew. The suffering the characters endure in TESB doesn't have as much meaning without ROTJ.
What's as irritating is how some people use TESB as a frying pan on George Lucas. It was good because he didn't direct it, they say. Irwin Kershner did a great job with the film but that's probably because he was trying really hard not to screw it up. He wasn't a particularly noted director before TESB and didn't really create anything on par with it afterwards. Then there's the total misunderstanding about Leigh Brackett's contribution to the script. Ms. Brackett was in the late stages of cancer when she tried to crank out the first draft of the script, virtually none of which was actually used. TESB was really written by Lawrence Kasdan, in consultation with Papa George. Kasdan also wrote ROTJ, but you won't hear as much praise for that one.
Those who claim TESB was the last good SW film, or even the only good SW film, ought to take into consideration that it was TESB that set the tone for the remaining four films of the series. It was TESB that introduced Yoda, that shaped SW further as a mythic cycle, that introduced the idea Vader was Luke's father, and that Vader was redeemable. If you didn't like the story in ROTJ or the PT...blame TESB.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/misspadme/56 |

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Japanese Fett
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 8:47 PM
Well, TESB is my 2nd favorite Star Wars. ROTS being my favorite, but you're right! Without ANH or ROTJ, this movie wouldn't have much of a story. Who is this Luke Who is this Han? Who is this Vader? Where did they all come from? From the ice planet, they would ask. That's why TESB can't be a stand alone film.
Sayonara, & MTFBWY
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Lord Shame
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 8:52 PM
Elegant words...for a more civilized age...
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The Dark Moose Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 9:11 PM
Or how it's almost become predictable that someone needs to say TESB is his or her favorite or the best of the series. Often, it's for specious, even downright dumb reasons ("it's great because it's...dark!"). Some have even taken it to a point where they consider TESB the only good SW film, while the others are wretched junk.
With respect, you're saying people are wrong for liking what they like, remembering what they remember, feeling what they felt.
That's like telling someone has a disease because their favorite color is blue, or because they like brocolli. Personal taste, personal experience, personal reaction is a purely subjective reaction that will largely be locked away in that person's own perception.
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The Dark Moose Moose Poodoo
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 9:11 PM
There's an old saying - "There's no accounting for taste." That you don't understand how someone could like one film and not like another SW film means just one thing - you are different. As are they. You being different from them, them being different from you - someone's bound to have a different favorite color, for reasons you may never understand, just like they may never understand why you're favorite color makes you happy. Simple as that.
I used to have a friend that liked asparagus. I liked brocolli. I couldn't understand why he liked asparagus. Then I realized I loved spinach. Who knows who liked what for dumb reasons. We just did.
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JediMelindaWolf Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 9:21 PM
Of course, TESB never was meant to stand alone.
I can't help but remark that I love all 6 SW films. As odd as it may seem, on any given day, my favorite will change from one to another (although it usually teeters between TESB and ROTJ). Why? Because it is through these two films the (original) characters develop, grow, expand their personal universes. (I'm just a product of the OT, and I connect more strongly with it.)
Just try to put the films in their proper perspective - realizing that opting for a favorite is purely subjective (to which you allude). That includes (film) critics. Let's face it - they're just as subjective as the rest of us, no matter how much they tout their objectivity!
MTFBWY
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jkelly There Is No Conflict
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 9:28 PM
I think the point of the blog is that there may be pseudo-intellectualism in fans' "love" for TESB. Its, ummm, ... dark and stuff. And its easy to defend your position if you claim TESB is your favorite. Harder to defend Jar Jar as the greatest protagonist since King Lear.
Every once in a while we need someone to point out that the Emperor has no clothes (or, in this case, is only half-dressed). do you think the lightning scars went all over? It's good, but let's not get carried away.
It's kind of like pointing out how over-rated Padme is in the whole series. Controversy indeed.
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jkelly There Is No Conflict
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date Posted: Aug 28, 2006 9:31 PM
I recall that, after ROTJ came out, the critics thought it was a step back into the right direction away from the dreary TESB and that TESB was even referred to as the "Temple of Doom" of the Star Wars trilogy (in reference to "Raiders" and "Last Crusde" being much better films -- allegedly). TESB is something, though, that does take a little more time to appreciate.
Perhaps the most interesting thing about TESB is the strength of the ensemble cast/ characters. Take that in relation to the notion that the 6 episodes really must go together (but can stand alone) and the portrayals in TESB become a microcosm of the saga.
And TPM is the best one -- double-bladed lightsabers.
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Kenobi-fan The Jundland Wastes Journal
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 6:52 AM
Controversy is good. I remember when I saw 'Empire', I could not believe Vader was Luke's dad. It had to be a lie. After the heroic ending of Star Wars, I refused to believe that 'truth' could exist in the Dark Side - in any form. Yet, there it was. After reading the ROTJ novelization before seeing it, I knew that the Emperor would fall before Vader's hand in defense of his son. It was Empire that pushed me to find out before seeing the concluding episode - I had to know: Is Darth Vader Luke's father? I can't see Jedi and not think of Empire (and vice versa), just as I can't view them and not think of ANH. I think the whole saga dances quite well together.
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oxward321 LET'S THANK THE MAKER
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 4:42 PM
Well said MissPadme, well said. I never saw a difference in the films, between the acting, writing and directing styles of the saga. I absolutely LOVE all six films. But I too feel "Empire" gets put on a pedestal, while the rest get overly, and undeservedly, criticised.
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 6:38 PM
Japanese Fett
I'll put it this way. "The Godfather II" and TESB are great movies in their own right and you can certainly appreciate just watching them alone. But ultimately, they are sequels to great movies, without which they're not possible.
Darth Spork
Well it is the first time Dark Moose made multiple posts on my blog .
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 6:48 PM
Okay, now to take on The Dark Moose  .
With respect, you're saying people are wrong for liking what they like, remembering what they remember, feeling what they felt.
I said If a fan genuinely considers TESB his or her favorite of the SW films, that's fine and [y]ou might like one SW film better than another and it is entirely subjective. I'm not telling anyone they're wrong for liking what they like if that's what they really like. What I was alluding to were some fans I've encountered or even stuff in the media from people who seem to me they're just giving answers everybody expects and nobody wants to deviate from what's considered cool.
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 6:53 PM
Con't:
Can you always tell the difference? No. But nobody will put you down if you say TESB is your favorite. I've seen the long knives get pulled on people who say ROTJ or TPM is their favorite.
Having been a first-time viewer, all I can say is you had to be immersed in that time to fully understand why the film appeals to those people. Or, people that like it now, may like it for totally different reasons.
I was a first time viewer, waay back in 1980. I know how one's appreciation for SW can change over time too. Nothing wrong with that.
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 8:06 PM
Con't:
I've seen people say similar things - that people like it for "dumb reasons", that they don't even understand why they like it. That, really, they just shouldn't like it. To like it, in that line of logic, is to be somehow defective.
Oh sure, I've seen the people-who-like-the-PT-really-didn't-like-it arguments. But I meant people who say things like "TESB is the best SW movie because it's dark." I read a lot of that in magazines in the 1990s and thinking that being dark doesn't make a movie good or bad and it doesn't make it better or worse than anything else.
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 8:26 PM
Con't:
That you don't understand how someone could like one film and not like another SW film means just one thing - you are different.
I must be different in thinking all of the movies are roughly the same in terms of quality. Just about any criticism levelled at the other movies, many of which I don't think are fair, could be or has been levelled at TESB. Also, a lot of the things that get hailed about TESB (aside from "it's dark!") are there in the other SW films.
What I'm saying is it's irritating to see how appreciation for TESB turned into overblowing it at the expense of the other movies.
Whew!
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 8:33 PM
JediMelindaWolf
I'm a fan of all six movies too. It's hard for me to choose a favorite, much less try and figure out which one is "best."
jkelly
I wasn't trying to point out anything defective about TESB, really. Just trying to be more fair about it.
Of course, I'd argue Padmé is underappreciated  .
Kenobi-fan
I agree!
Lord Shame
Thanks.
oxward321
You pretty much nailed it in far few sentences than I did  .
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Master Andy Luke Skywalker
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 9:35 PM
Everybody has their different tastes, and you can't blame them. Although it may seem like many people prefer ESB to the others, one has to remember the true importance of ESB. ANH created the world of that galaxy far far away and their memorable characters, and inmediately the rest of the universe fell in love with them. Now what we have to consider is that the goal of the ESB was to be as good a movie as ANH, in order for GL to be able to continue. I mean, there were two posibilities, either ESB was good, and people actually wanted to see more great SW films such as ROTS,ROTJ, TPM and AOTC, or it sucked, and thus not only ended all posibilities for future Star Wars movies to come. (cont)
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Master Andy Luke Skywalker
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 9:35 PM
This meant it would also completely ruin ANH. This is why I love the ESB, not necesesarily because it complements ANH so well, and it is a great movie on its own, but it helped continue by creating other favorites, and allowing us to discover the rest of George's vision, Gungans and all.
Andy Luke
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jkelly There Is No Conflict
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date Posted: Aug 29, 2006 10:31 PM
I wasn't trying to point out anything defective about TESB, really.
Maybe you misunderstood me. If I can use another example. It's easy to say, "Michael Jordan is my favorite basketball player." That's just too easy -- it's a cop-out. It's the same as saying TESB is my favorite SW film. It's the easy way out. You're right. What do they have to back it up? "It's dark" or "Jordan scored a lot of points"
It's harder to defend a film just because you like double-bladed lightsabers. It's also harder to defend Kevin Johnson as your favorite basketball player just because he has better career numbers than Steve Nash.
And Padme is over-rated.
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amidalooine The Emotional Galaxy
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date Posted: Aug 30, 2006 5:07 AM
I saw that, jkelly...Padme is NOT overrated! Now Steve Nash....
I am applauding this entry, Miss Padme, and I agree with 110%. I graduated from high school the same year TESB came out and got married the year ROTJ did. Even then, fans' knocking ROTJ while praising TESB just because it was "dark" annoyed me! Dark Moose's observation about being immersed in that time period (1980) is a good one...but if I understand his implication, it doesn't wash with me.
ANH started it all. TESB complicated matters. And the rest of the SW films fleshed out the story. It's one, big saga in my very OT-era mind.
Great entry!
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oxward321 LET'S THANK THE MAKER
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date Posted: Aug 30, 2006 6:11 AM
I've noticed that most (like 99%) of all the "fans" that complain and criticise are males from my generation. I have two sons and two nephews and they have many friends that all love Star Wars. Mainly Episodes I,II,III not because of the FX (putting the clones aside) but the characters, Anakin, Obi, Qui-Gon and Maul, oh my. These are the fans of the future, I feel that some of us old timers are tiring to destroy the Star Wars name (and GL) because not everything live up to thier standards. Sometimes being a fan because of fans like these can be frustrating.
Star Wars is Forever, let's keep it that way.
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rj_peters Memos from the Imperial Finance Department
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date Posted: Sep 02, 2006 7:00 AM
ESB definitely has the most street-cred of the sw movies. It is a bit of a default answer to say it's your favorite, but there are default answers to just about everything. It makes the world go round.
As for my opinion, I always had ESB in third place as a kid. The Yoda sequences bogged down for me (rimshot!). Seriously though, as a kid, I never really liked all the Yoda stuff. It seemed slow and boring. ROTJ was probably my favorite as a kid. Even as an adult, I probably would be ESB in 6th place. Other than the Hoth battle, it doesn't have too much that I love and it has the smallest scope. Half the movie or more is Yoda training Luke/Falcon running away.
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amidalooine The Emotional Galaxy
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date Posted: Sep 04, 2006 7:35 AM
Miss Padme...I just had to post again...I was in Circuit City yesterday and had a brief conversation with the young man who rang me up about Star Wars (ROTS was on a TV near the register). I asked him what his favorite film was...
Yep...TESB...because it's darker and more real than the other films.
I pulled out my Hyperspace member card...
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MissPadme Miss Padme's Naboo Love Nest
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date Posted: Sep 05, 2006 8:21 PM
amidalooine, I wonder what's more real about TESB as opposed the other SW films. It's a bit like saying Order of the Phoenix was more real than The Half Blood Prince  .
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Fish1941
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date Posted: Sep 27, 2006 10:24 AM
ROTJ was the first SW movie that was a big favorite of mine until TESB became my favorite in the late 80s. Although I enjoyed it, TPM could not change my opinion. At first, AOTC failed to change my mind. But now, I consider TESB, AOTC and ROTS tied for the position for what I consider the best SW flick. But I still love the other 3. I just watched TPM recently and was suprised on how much I enjoyed it. ANH is still a lot of fun to watch. In fact, I consider it the most fun-filled of the 6 movies. And ROTJ, I feel has some of the best movies. Dammit, I just love all 6 movies. What can I say?
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Fish1941
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date Posted: Sep 27, 2006 10:26 AM
What I meant to say is that ROTJ has some of the best moments.
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