Hello, you are not signed on.
[ Blogs.starwars.com ]

Moose Poodoo
date posted: Jun 26, 2005 11:43 AM  |  updated: Jun 26, 2005 9:40 PM
Who Really Asked Anakin to Spy on the Chancellor?
There seemed to be discrepencies in the dialog surrounding Obi-Wan's covert meeting with Anakin, informing him of the Council's decision to have him report on the Chancellor's dealings. Call me slow (hey, I'm a moose), but I finally took Obi-Wan's suggestion: "Search your feelings - something is out of place here."

Aside from his more obvious misgivings due to his loyalty to Palpatine, Anakin is suspicious along lines of thought not immediately clear. Obi-Wan tells Anakin he did not want to see Anakin put into this position. Anakin pointedly asks shortly thereafter why this request was not made in session. Anakin doesn't like this, and Anakin sees through Obi-Wan.

When Obi-Wan explains it was not to be a matter of record, therefore tipping the Chancellor's hand, Anakin is even more frustrated by this answer. Clearly, the more Anakin digs, there is indeed something out of place here.

Let's fast-forward to dialog on board the Republic Gunship transport speeding through Coruscant's sky traffic with Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan on board.

"It's dangerous putting the boy with him. I don't trust him, " Mace declares.

Ah-ha. This wasn't Mace's idea. Yoda, in a rare moment of distress and tension, bows his head in frustration and rubs his brow back.

"With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One?", Obi-Wan counters.

Mace and Yoda both agree "A prophecy that was misread, could have been."

Obi-Wan is adamant: "Anakin has never let me down."

"Hope right, you are," Yoda offers as a final ominous warning.

Ah-ha. This wasn't Yoda's idea, either.

This was Obi-Wan's idea to further pair Anakin with the most dangerous man in the Galaxy, Palpatine. He most likely had pushed his agenda on the Council to let Anakin do this. In fact, though a remote possibility, this may not have been the Council's joint decision at all. This could have been purely Obi-Wan's doing, and he's only now revealed it to them on that gunship. That may be why it wasn't in session. That perhaps is why Mace and Yoda are clearly so troubled.

Either way, this explains Anakin's oddly worded question to Obi-Wan. He suspected, perhaps even sensed, exactly the intent:

"Why are you asking this of me?"

Obi-Wan pauses, and that moment is telling. This may be one of the classic "certain point of view" Kenobi moments that suddenly does not seem so easy to carry off. Obi-Wan slowly reiterates:

"The council is asking."

This scene may be partially at the heart of Obi-Wan's later regret. This perhaps was Obi-Wan's final attempt to guide Anakin, to ensure his loyalties, to teach him right from wrong. Moreover, it was Obi-Wan's attempt to put Anakin back in the Council's good graces after he is forced upon their roster by the very man they don't trust, Palpatine. Not to mention, Anakin is in need of a little damage control after his tyrade in front of Mace, telling him that being on the Council in this fashion is "outrageous" and "unfair".

Obi-Wan was attempting to guide Anakin, perhaps as Yoda had once tried to guide him, away from his anger, toward his clarity. And in fact, Obi-Wan himself may have delivered a vulnerable and confused Anakin directly into the hands of the Enemy.

It took me a while to dissect those scenes, but I knew they had another layer of meaning. That's the thing about these movies, kiddos - nothing is just exactly as it seems. That's why it's fun to keep looking at them.

In the end analysis, that was what Obi-Wan was talking about I believe, when he calls out to him on Mustafar - "I have failed you, Anakin."

  4641841
The Diary of a Mad Mayzie :p
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 11:56 AM
NOOOOOOoooooooooooo..... not Obiwan! :_|

Man, that's just so sad... I wish you hadn't pointed that out... he's my favorite character of the prequels... but alas, it seems that you are correct
  Sierra Jae
Galactic Musings of a Jedi Princess
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 12:10 PM
Hmmm, I never thought of it that way, and I grant that you may be correct. However, at the end of Episode I, Yoda still seems not to want Anakin to be trained but says the Council agreed to it. We don't know exactly how the council works but it could be majority rule, and in that case even though Mace and Yoda weren't comfortable with Anakin spying, maybe everyone else on the Council still agreed to it. Then again, if it wasn't supposed to be a matter of record, when and where would the Council have discussed it? Hmmm...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 12:27 PM
An excellent question - how would the Council have made a joint decision without meeting? A closed-door, back room session?
  Mustafar_man
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 12:37 PM
You have made some valid points Dark Moose. It interests me how people are going to react to this striking revelation, as seeing their hero Obi-wan being directly part responsible for sending Anakin down the path to the dark side.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 1:02 PM
Well, we always knew at least that Obi-Wan himself felt he was responsible for Anakin's demise, based on everything he said in Return of the Jedi to Luke as a ghost on Dagobah...

"When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong."
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 1:06 PM
But what we don't see is the original draft of that scene, which was cut down in dialog to save time but still convey Obi-Wan's regret. Here is the fuller version of dialog, which, someone help me out, may also mirror the dialog in the novelization...

BEN: When I first knew him, your father was
already a great pilot. But I was amazed how
strongly the Force was with him. I took it
upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I
thought that I could instruct him just as
well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has
had terrible consequences for the galaxy.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 1:06 PM
He feels a sense of failure in his entire training of Anakin, not just this once incident, but I think it part it may be a focus of his regrets - he may have placed the straw that broke the Bantha's back, as it were...
  The Chosen Nelvaan
Nelvaan's Galactic Database
date Posted: Jun 26, 2005 11:19 PM
I think that a jedi suggested that someone spy on the chancellor or findout wat he's doing and Obi-Wan reccomended Anakin b/c he felt that he could trust his old padawan and b/c Obi-Wan thought anakin wouldn't let him down
  jedimaster_911
The Master Maker
date Posted: Jun 27, 2005 8:59 AM
Yes I do not think it was all Obi Wan and some one else who recommended it but Obi Wan felt the most comfortable asking it of Anakin.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 27, 2005 11:55 AM
The interesting thing is there are indications (I haven't read the novel yet), in Stover's version of events that Obi-Wan was displeased with the idea of putting Anakin with the Chancellor.

So that leaves the final edit of the movie scene a little odd, and contrary to that idea. That Mace and Yoda, as well as Obi-Wan, arguably 3 of the most revered Jedi on the Council, would all be against the idea, but somehow it still passes a covert Council vote? Unlikely.

More importantly, if something like this were suggested out of Council session, and voted on out of council session, who would coordinate such a clandestine vote other than someone influential on the Council?
  ithekro
date Posted: Jun 27, 2005 6:45 PM
If I recall, the idea of sending Anakin, The Chosen One, to root out the Sith in the Chancellor's Inner Circle was the main idea behind the spy mission. Obi-wan is being torn about asking Anakin because he knows the boy is split between his friendships with both Obi-wan and Palpatine. Obi-wan is confident that Anakin will make the correct choice, it is only later that he finds that Anakin's "point of view" doesn't mess with his own about what the "right" choice was.

  ithekro
date Posted: Jun 27, 2005 6:45 PM
....Continued.

The trouble Yoda, Mace, and Obi-wan have is that they don't trust Palpatine, yet think they need it to be Anakin to find the Sith and allow the Jedi to bring balance to the Force. Which is a reason why Mace tells Skywalker to stay at the Temple. Anakin's job is "done", the more skilled Jedi will handle the rest. The question remains...if Anakin has stayed at the Temple....would Palpatine have taken Windu? Was Palpatine putting on a show for Anakin to finalize his fall to the dark side? Or would Mace have been able to finish the Sith Lord?
  lazerbrainz7377
date Posted: Jun 27, 2005 7:28 PM
I don't think it was Obi-wan only based on what his reaction was in the book. In the book it shows Obi-wan trying to talk the council out of it, " How can you ask him to lie to a friend- to spy upon him?".
SEE! It's not Obi-wa, but the rest of the council! it doesn't seem like, from the book, they are all keen on the idea, but they think that this may be their best hope for finding the Sith.
- Ki-Adi-Mundi said,"...in these desperate times, only desperate plans have hope for sucess,";)
  anakin_skywalker_08
date Posted: Jun 27, 2005 7:30 PM
The idea must have comed from Obi-Wan's I mean what Dooku told Obi-Wan In AOTC
must haved pushed Obi-Wan's decision also Obi-Wan knew that Anakin was Palpatine's closest friend that may haved been the cause of the decision to send Anakin untill know I hadn't though of it that way Dark Moose Great thinking]:)
  darth vinsidious
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 7:00 AM
On that gunship scene the first thing Obi Wan says is that Anakin did not take his new assignment well. To me that shows the order came directly from the council and not just obi wan. Obi wan repeats the mantra to anakin through episodes ii and iii to follow exactly what the council has instructed. So maybe when obi wan says "I failed you" it was because he didn't fight hard enough for his padawan to not be put in that position. If anyone threw anakin under the bus it was mace windu who didn't want to train him in the first place, didn't let him go after grievous with obi wan and didn't let him arrest the chancelor after reporting back that palpatine was indeed a sith lord.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 7:59 AM
On that gunship scene the first thing Obi Wan says is that Anakin did not take his new assignment well.

The word "assignment" would imply a council decision, yes. But the statement itself is neutral - it's just reporting the facts. It does not indicate how Obi-Wan feels about Anakin's assignment, only that, as he probably would suspect, Anakin didn't like it. To me that question remains open - even if by decision of the council, who pushed the idea in the first place?

  darth vinsidious
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 8:33 AM
I think it is either Yoda or Mace who pushes the idea. Palpatine makes Anakin his jedi go between knowing how the Jedi will react- by spying on him. Using Skywalker as an emissary is not a decision that would be made by Obi Wan. Plus I don't think Kenobi would act without approval of the council
  IsSkywalker
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 10:35 AM
I think it was more Windu than Yoda, because since episode I he has never trusted Anakin. And then we see in episode II he starts distrusting the senate. And if we take it to the conclusion, which is episode III, we all know that he doesn't trust either of the two: Palpatine nor Anakin. Plus we also see that Yoda has to stop Windu's mind from wandering through the dark side's path. If you ask me, it was Windu who gave the idea.
  TK 8970
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 10:48 AM
they really had no way of knowing that Palpaine was Sith until Anikin told him. Palpatine set them up when he said that Anikin was to be sent to Utapau- because of course the council would refuse.
JustinSoloDE
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 11:29 AM
You are calling Obi-Wan a liar if you follow this line of thought. He outright said "Anakin, I'm on your side. I did not want to put you in this situation". However, being the loyal man Obi-Wan is, he obeys the Council even if he personally disagrees. I agree Mace was against it, but Yoda could have been on the fence.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 11:40 AM
they really had no way of knowing that Palpaine was Sith until Anikin told him

But they still knew not to trust him, and that there was something wrong with the whole picture because of him. Otherwise, why have him spied on?

It really seems to me that in the gunship, Yoda and Mace were in total agreement - this was a very iffy plan.
  smokey3779
Jedi Master Smokey
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 1:13 PM
just kind of a side note.....as was pointed out before, when Anakin came to Mace and reported to him that Palpatine was Sidious, perhaps he felt that Anakin had fulfilled his part of the prophecy by discovering who the Sith was and making it possible to destroy them. Maybe he felt that it was the Council's responsibility to dispose of Sidious, overlooking Anakin's superior powers.
  JediPumpkin55
Jedi Pumpkin Patch
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 1:16 PM
I personaly think that it was one of those things with democrasy... I mean, maybe yoda, mace and posible orthers got out voted by the other counsel members. Just a thought;)
  Lady Shada
Shada's Thoughts
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 2:16 PM
Hm...interesting POV you have there, Moose. But I'm not sure it was all Obi-Wan. I don't know. But looking at what you said here, that does make sense. I would have to go back and take a look at it all.
  Mattneto15
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 3:34 PM
Sorry Moose, But I think you're Grade A 100% Wrong. I don't see that at all. I don't see why at that time it would make ANY sense for Obi-Wan to lie to Anakin. They are as close as they will ever be. The situation of distrust that has come about is the careful work of Palpatine.
  ithekro
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 5:14 PM
As for spying on Palpatine, the idea I believe was that the Jedi Council felt that the words of Dooku needed to be looked into as the war dragged on, for Palpatine was taking more power and interfering with the Jedi. As these actions and some other pieces of evidence started to point to the Sith Lord being on Coruscant, probably in the Councellor's Inner Circle, and that Palpatine has more or less attempted to take over Jedi matters by placing Anakin on the Coucil, that the Jedi want to see what is motivating Palpatine.

(Continued)
  ithekro
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 5:14 PM
...Continued.

Obi-wan tries to use Anakin's friendship with Palpatine to get Anakin to do this job. If the Sith is in Palpatine's Inner Circle, then Anakin's friend from Naboo is in danger, and it would be in Anakin's interests to make sure his friend was safe. But Obi-wan also knows that doing this rips at Anakin's morals because it feels like he is helping a friend by betraying a friend. In the end he does this, but by siding with Palpatine against the Jedi and Obi-wan....in effect betraying all of his friends for the power to save the one he loves...and fails at that....leaving him with only his "friend" Palpatine.....until his son comes into the picture again....
  Angie13H99
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 5:36 PM
Well I agree Lazerbrainz7377. The book is different. Obi-wan didn't want to put Anakin in that situation, knowing full well Anakin's loyality to his friends overpowers his trained Jedi ways(morals). It was the counsel. It distressed Obi-wan greatly. That is afterall why he visited Padme in the early morning hours (further distressing Anakin with thoughts of jealousy) before he set off for Utapau. "An unintentional opportunity, the Chancellor has given us,"Yada said Gravely. "A window he has opened into the operations of his office. Fools we would be, to close our eye's"- directly from the book. Yoda's idea and the will of the council.
  tjordan_33
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 5:50 PM
I thought your posting was most interesting, Moose. Very good insight. I think your observations are defiantly possible but mostly unlikely. I am more partial to the book's expansion on the plot. I believe Obi wan was sincere in his hesitation to see Anakin not be placed in that situation. Actually, I think they (the council) all probably had there misgivings. However, as Yoda points out in the book, it was a golden opportunity. When you think about it, Yoda was correct. It did allow the Jedi to find out what was really going on. Unfortunately, this revelation came at the expense of Anakin and the council itself.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 28, 2005 7:16 PM
I see what you mean about the book's explanation as well - it would indicate it was either Yoda or Ki-Adi mainly, perhaps...in the book, that is. But I'm not too entrenched to say that is exactly as it sounds - it may very well be exactly as it reads in Stover's version....

But without the novelization, the editing makes it certainly appear the other way. Was the dialog cut on purpose to imply this? Or was that an inadvertant result? Or..is it meant to be left ambiguous?
  felinith
date Posted: Jul 01, 2005 6:53 AM
The reason the council approved of Anakin's appointment to the council was for the very reason that they needed a Jedi close to Palpatine who the chancellor trusts and who can in turn spy on what the chancellor is up to. Anakin's relationship with Palpatine swayed the council's decision eventhough they didn't like what the chancellor was doing. Even Obi-wan implied it to Anakin in their exchange after Anakin's appointment. He also added that he didn't want to put Anakin in such a position. And before all this, he did warn Anakin to be careful of his friend Palapatine. Only Anakin, blinded by his desire to become a master, didn't listen. So no, I don't think Obi-wan had anything to do with the decision to have Anakin spy on the chancellor.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 02, 2005 12:30 PM
Well, I do agree with the idea that Yoda and Mace could be against something, and it still pass a vote in Council - namely in that its happened before, when Yoda didnt want to see him become Obi-Wan's padawan, but still - "Agree with you the Council does".

In the end analysis, though the scene seems to indicate Obi-Wan's support, the book indicates differently. But it is clearly another one of the Council's decisions that was poorly made, and against Yoda and Mace's will. And perhaps, even, despite my theory above, against Obi-Wan's will as well. But it's an interesting scene to think about. For me the question is still somewhat unanswered - who idea was it?
  darthmolly3
darthmolly3
date Posted: Jul 29, 2005 7:42 AM
If you read the book and the graphic novel it appears to be the will of the counsel not Obi-Wan. In a conversation between Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan- he states to them that he feels that asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine is wrong. Anakin holds friendships very dear and that Anakin would likely not trust them again. He acknowledges that he would risk everything to save Anakin and that Anakin had already done likewise. Anakin values relationships above anything else. I think that Obi-Wan blames himself because he ignored Anakin's relationships with Padme and Palpatine. He knew that he was attached to these two people and they played a larger role than they should have in his life
  Sunnyskywalker
Sunnyskywalker's Star Wars Stuff
date Posted: Aug 17, 2005 6:42 PM
Hmm. Very interesting. And it would be so like Obiwan to tell Anakin he didn't want to put him in that position while leaving out the bit about it being his idea in the first place. It would be true, after all--he didn't want to. He just thought it was necessary and there was no other way.

Yeah, I can see that. I'll have to think about it some more though.
  Fish1941
date Posted: May 17, 2006 4:10 PM
I DO agree that in the end - Obi-Wan had given Anakin some very bad advice regarding the mission to spy upon Palpatine.

What I find remarkable about Obi-Wan's actions is that he had told Anakin that he did not agree with this plan. Yet, it was more important to him that Anakin obey the Council's wishes, rather than adhere to his feelings.
  Fish1941
date Posted: May 17, 2006 4:14 PM
I find it odd that some people believe that the idea for Anakin to spy upon Palpatine was Mace Windu's idea. In ROTS, Mace made it very clear that he DID NOT like the idea of Anakin being in such close proximity with Palpatine. I suspect that either Yoda or Ki-Adi-Mundi had originally dreamed up this idea.
  • Please log in to post comments