Hello, you are not signed on.
[ Blogs.starwars.com ]

Moose Poodoo
date posted: Jul 15, 2005 4:34 PM  |  updated: Jul 18, 2005 9:26 AM
Conflict and Clarity - Prelude to a Sith Showdown
No one could confuse Palpatine's and Vader's relationship as rosey. One could even make the case that they weren't friends at all, merely tenuously balanced weighty matter at opposite ends of the scales of will and power.

But if there was any moment when it became clear to Palpatine that his battle-scarred apprentice was wavering in purpose, it was in the events leading up to Vader's and Luke's last meeting, in which two promises were to be kept - Luke's to Yoda, and Vader's to Palpatine. Father and son had to be reunited. Just how remained to be seen.

From the instant Vader lopes into the Imperial Throne Room high atop a ghostly spire on the unfinished second Death Star, the Emperor's tone is, too say the least, none too pleased...

"I told you to remain on the command ship," he bitterly reminds Vader.

Vader will not be deterred. "A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield
and landed on Endor."


Palpatine, as we know, is non-plussed by the news. "Yes, I know."

And here is where it starts to fall apart. Vader realizes that it's time to make his play. But he is confused as to why the Emperor has not made his. He pauses, some think out of fear, some think out of thought, before he delivers the fateful news...

"My son is with them."

Now, this is troubling. The Emperor, up until this point, has directed nearly every single detail, minute to magnificent, in the rise of the Sith. He has murdered, genocidally. He has corrupted on grand scales. He has lied, and manipulated, and most importantly, he has utilized his dark visions of the future to bend the fate of the Galaxy to his will. The more the Dark Side of the Force envelopes everything and everyone, the more his ability to read every nuance of this insidious fabric increases exponentially. Until now.

"Are you sure?", he queries with skepticism.

"I have felt him, my Master."

You have to imagine the instant turmoil of the great mind of Palpatine at this moment. The very idea that the Dark Lord would not know something of this importance, either through conventional means or the Force, is unfathomable. And so it's time to face ugly possibilities - one of four things is out of place here: Vader's senses, his own abilities, Vader's loyalty, or the Force. All of them - bad tidings. He plays his next card carefully, but with malice aforethought. What follows is a carefully crafted threat, coiled like a most venomous viper.

"Strange, that I have not," he coldly concedes his blindness. He levels a steely gaze on his apprentice, wary and full of intent.

"I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader."

Translation: You sense something I don't. You're either getting soft on me, or you're plotting something. Either way, be careful, old friend...

Now I have to stop and wonder why this is happening. Why would Vader, who we already know is truly up to something, be capable of seeing what the Emperor can not? When did this ability suddenly jump from Palpatine's toolbox into Vader's? Surely, Vader has always been able to sense things. But if he could do it as well as his Master, he would have seen many, many things by now. And if he could do so without the Emperor being aware of the same happenings, then someone else would be sitting in that lovely dark Barco-lounger perched high atop the north pole of this technological terror. Someone with a breathing problem and a bad temper.

So what's happening here? A tectonic shift in Vader, and in the Force, that's what. Vader is sensing something that is locked away from Palpatine's Dark Side detections. That could only mean that what Vader is sensing is not Dark at all. Some small part of Anakin is awakening, and some small part of his better half is connected by a tendril of good nature to his son. In short, Palpatine can not see through the very cloud of the Dark Side he created.

Vader, on the other hand, apparently does not know exactly what this means, other than he may have some advantage. "Apparently", I say with reservations. However, the flipside of this advantage is his immediate danger. His loyalty, and/or his usefulness in this dark enterprise, is being tested. Questioned. Interrogated, in fact.

Palpatine does not like this one bit. It's time for truth or dare - Conflict or Clarity, and Vader is on center stage in a very menacing spot light under the gaze of the most powerful being in the Galaxy. And so he must deliver an affirmation of some sort. But I wonder about it's meaning.

"They are clear, my Master," he answers.

But were they? Vader, at this point, is in open warfare with himself. He is undoubtedly mired in conflict, all the while his mind is racing to shape his plans for Luke. He is still convinced that he and Luke together can take the Emperor down. He is split, and again even drawn and quartered, his pschye fractured along fault lines both within himself, and his alliance to the Emperor, and some odd connection, if not yet compassion, in his sense of fatherhood. And not the least of which is immediately vexing is that he probably now questions about himself what the Emperor questions - what is happening here? What he does not realize is that the weakest link in this 3-ring showdown is not Luke, nor the Emperor. It's him.

So I truly wonder, and I am honestly not completely sure about this - at what stage was Vader in his inner conflict? The obvious answer is that he has a deathgrip on his dark persona, and is beating back Anakin's resurgance. But what if it's the other way around? Was it a lie when he affirmed his clarity with the Emperor? Or had he already changed his mind? What, then, was he clear about, I wonder...

This was either Vader's greatest lie to himself, to the Emperor, or both.

DM out

  andy142
date Posted: Jul 15, 2005 5:10 PM
Another great post Moose! But i have a question, why didnt Vader reveal to Luke that he was having these feelings on Endor. He could have been like, "Son, ever since i have meet you, you have rewoken Anakin inside me, I am truely living again and I want to know, would you help me? or something along those lines, why didn't he at least warn Luke of Palpatine's power like Yoda did? Or at least tell him he was planning on turning on Palpatine.......although he sorta implied that in Ep. V.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 15, 2005 5:18 PM
But i have a question, why didnt Vader reveal to Luke that he was having these feelings on Endor.

I think because he was still hatching his plan then. Remember, he's already tried the direct route. He's offered Luke Power and Luke chose his own demise over corruption. And so now Vader knows Luke must be turned first. More importantly, Luke must be persuaded to come before the Emperor. Vader can no more avoid that reality than take off his mask to breath the free air. It's his plan to turn Luke, and turn Luke on the Emperor. He can't do that by appealing to Luke's good nature. And he truly believes, at that point, that "It's too late for me, son." He doesn't see a path back from the Dark Side, or doesn't want to.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 15, 2005 5:28 PM
It can also be said that Vader, in being stalwart in his fixation on the Dark Side, knows now that he can not turn Luke alone. This is how the double-cross has to go down - he must bring Luke before Palpatine. He needs Palpatine's help, and besides, the Emperor has forseen it, so it must happen this way. And so while the Emperor is planning to use Luke against Vader, Vader is planning to use Luke against Palpatine. Luke, meanwhile, is trying to use Vader against Palpatine. It's a triangle from hell, basically. The short answer to your question, then, is that Vader just wasn't conflicted enough at that point - he was still working on his power play.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 15, 2005 5:32 PM
But, I see your point. It would seem to be one possible answer to at least the question about just how conflicted he was at their meeting before taking Luke prisoner on Endor. But it still lends itself to the idea that what he was "clear" about, was that Palpy was going down, either way. :0)
  Catal Al-Undar
Building the Used Future...
date Posted: Jul 16, 2005 9:47 AM
I think the biggest point you are missing is that Vader doesn't necessarily see him self as evil, only that he has control over the dark side. He still wants to rule the galaxy, just as he did with padme in ROTS, he thinks that he can do the best job, and that theory goes all the way back to AOTC when he says that some one strong should rule and make people agree. Who is he talking about I wonder?
  Catal Al-Undar
Building the Used Future...
date Posted: Jul 16, 2005 9:49 AM
He still thinks that palpatine is doing a bad job at running the galaxy, what with this pesky rebellion and all. He thinks that a turned Luke, a Luke with full knowledge of all the Jedi powers, (he knows the light side and now needs to learn the dark side,) could be a better enforcer than he himself was under palpatine. Vader isn't looking for power in the conventional sense I think, but more in the, "I just want peace", both on the face of the galaxy at large, and peace from the conflict inside him. Vader sees Luke as the power that he once was, before losing a great connection to the Force in his battle with Obi Wan in ROTS. the power to make people agree and do whats best for the galaxy.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 16, 2005 9:57 AM
I think that's an inherrent part of the theme Lucas is trying to impart about Evil - a twofold theme, actually - that Evil can come from Good, and few truly evil people truly think they're evil. Even Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. I will go one further along those lines you mention - Vader separates being on the Dark Side from being Evil. However, though he may believe in the ways of the Dark Side for at least some amount of time, his encounter with Luke makes him do a couple of things - lament its control over him, and undoubtedly shows him another path. If this were not true, the inner conflict would have never arisen. Then what was belief, becomes stubborn denial, ripe for change.
  Aqua Jinn
Rhapsody of the Aquamen
date Posted: Jul 16, 2005 12:46 PM
I may be completely off, so correct me if I am wrong.

" In my point of view, the Jedi are evil." Anakin firmly believes that the Jedi had betrayed those who try to serve peace. Not only that, he was lied to by palpatine, who told him that he would restore peace and order to the galaxy. Palpy pointed out the darkness in Anakin, and he used that to seduce him to the darkside. Serving the darkside and ditrusting the Jedi, Anakin believes that he is doing the right thing.
  Aqua Jinn
Rhapsody of the Aquamen
date Posted: Jul 16, 2005 12:46 PM
However, the darkside creates the lust for power, and when someone is consumed by this evil, his lust also grows. This is why he he does some pretty evil things. Perhaps, he is not entirly evil, but that he is simply misled. Later, Vader relizes this during the near ending of his conflict withen himself.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 16, 2005 2:04 PM
Yes, absolutely, up until he began to question his life ( thanks to Luke) he did think he was doing the right thing. The only thing left to do, as it appeared to him. Finding Luke, however, reminded him that there was a life he had not had the chance to follow, due to his own choices. As that memory cascades through his reasoning for all the ideals Vader stands for, he breaks down further and further - I think even so quickly he does not yet understand. He may not know yet why he alone can sense Luke, and neither does Palpatine. But I think Vader is starting to get the idea... or more aptly what's left of Anakin is.
  General Revenge
The General's Meeting Room
date Posted: Jul 17, 2005 12:43 PM
great post moose
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 18, 2005 7:31 AM
thankya. :0) I enjoy diving deeper into key Original Trilogy scenes. There were so many levels that I feel like aren't explored as much as they should be. Not to mention now that I'm a little longer in the antlers I think I get things I didn't as a kid - it's like discovering these films all over again.
  Sunnyskywalker
Sunnyskywalker's Star Wars Stuff
date Posted: Aug 10, 2005 5:17 PM
Maybe he means his feelings are clearly confused ; Really though, maybe this is the moment when he first consciously realized his Anakin side is still there, fighting to come back. The first moment when he's suddenly very clear what a conflicted person he is, and that he's going to be facing some tough choices soon no matter how hard he tries to avoid them. (And it's the Emperor who helped him realize this. Whoops!) When Vader says, "They are clear," he's trying to covince himself as much as he's trying to convince the Emperor. Maybe.
  • Please log in to post comments