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Moose Poodoo
date posted: Oct 27, 2005 12:47 PM  |  updated: Oct 27, 2005 3:27 PM
"That is why you fail..."
In this blog entry, Ryan Kaufman asks these insightful questions:

Was this outcome inevitable? Did the Jedi begin to pull away from their basic belief in defense and knowledge, when they embarked on a path of war? Were they complicit in their own fall-- turning ever so slightly from the Light Side, step by step?

To which, in part, I had responded:

I think in the end, of all the things the Jedi had become complacent about, the most important one was the idea that they were to serve the Republic only as commanded, not as their conscience dictated.

Ryan then asked me to elaborate on this thought, and I found I hadn't the room, nor did I want to bleed away his response space..so I brought it here to link to there.

In that statement, I was referring to their departure from the tenets of peace through protection of the Republic, and of democracy - they had a moral obligation to maintain a defensive posture, not just from those threats from without, but threats from within as well. They had traditionally sought peace via diplomacy and dialogue, not the "agressive negotiations" Anakin seemed to embrace. When they were asked then to lay down their ideals and pick up their weapons instead, though reluctant and befuddled, they never seemed to openly, and as one voice, ask "Why?"

Oddly it was those breakaways who more openly questioned the state of the Republic by deciding to fight it - namely one Count Dooku. Though misguided by his own moral compass, he at least took action against the establishment of the day. He had decided that just because it was incumbent, doesn't make it right. The Jedi, faced with the same choices, decided only on their small part in those affairs, but never rose above the conflict to assert the ideals that had effectively protected the peace for millennia.

They accepted their subserviant role instead of asserting their moral leadership. Moral leadership is not something assigned to you in a constitution or a military code. Moral leadership resides in the hearts and minds of those you lead and serve. It exists independantly of those powers granted by the state - it is something akin to those "unalienable rights" of the Jeffersonian school of thought.

The Jedi had evolved into something higher than martial bastions - they were moral leaders and role models. They were the embodiment of the high ideals of the Republic. If any democracy was so sacred that it had its own priesthood, it was the Jedi that heard this holy calling.

What we fight to gain through blood, we strive to keep in peace. Sometimes one has to pick up arms to defend those things, but at that moment, its crucial to decide who you're fighting for. It's apropos it was Yoda who later admonished Luke thusly: "Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things." A statement in a vacuum of wisdom? I think not. I think Yoda is referring directly back to exactly the dilemmas facing the Jedi at the time of their demise. It was of extreme importance that the Jedi realize where they were. What they were doing. It was their blindness to the real threat that led them down the path of becoming generals instead of alarmists.

These are things embedded in our own national conscience and I think there is no coincidence the George brings them to light again. They are at our formation, and rightfully at the formation of every democracy - the first initial choice of right and wrong, led by moral judgement, not legal. Our most sacred icon of democracy starts out with these words:

WHEN, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands... among the Powers of the Earth...to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them...

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it.


It is in that vein of thought that we realize that it's the morality of choice, not the legality of choice, that defines Democracy. As Jedi, they were the very clerics of such an ancient undertaking, and the defenders of the faith, if you will. This being in a democracy not 200 some odd years old. More like 10's of thousands of years old. That they would have accepted their role as merely pawns and not as the integral moral fiber of the Republic is tragic on epic scales.

They had become so used to a role serving the Republic's needs, they had forgotten their role as leaders of the Republic's hearts. They had lost their belief, and therefore, their purpose.

"That is why you fail,"
Yoda would later say to the only remaining Padawan.

  brandow
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:06 PM
The Jedi were lost for two reasons: they had become entirely too dogmatic and they had become complacent. It was their narrow, dogmatic view of how the Force should be used and by whom that weakened them to the point that Palpatine could operate undetected under their very noses. It was their complacency that allowed Palpatine to manipulate the Republic into the state of war without the Jedi doing much of anything to prevent it.
  ThrawnRocks1
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:08 PM
Finally! A well written and to the point essay on the fall of the Jedi. Thank you, Moose.







As an unrelated side note, I now see Battlefront in different ways thanks to you. I don't think I'll ever see either Vader or AT-AT's the same way again...:)
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:09 PM
The Jedi were lost for two reasons: they had become entirely too dogmatic

I would be remiss to point out the first person to pose this idea was none other than Palpatine, the one seeking to undermine their dogma...

I rather think if they adhered a little more to their core dogma, not the rhetoric that surrounded it, they would have seen their path more clearly.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:12 PM
Finally! A well written and to the point essay on the fall of the Jedi. Thank you, Moose.

One that I would not have arrived at if Ryan had not asked the insightful questions that he did. But thanks :0) And I'm glad I've changed the way you view the use of AT-AT's and their possible uses against the ultimate Jerk in Battlefront :0)
  brandow
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:15 PM
I think Exhibit A in my argument that the Jedi had become too dogmatic is their refusal to accept Qui-Gon's view of the Force, which is substantiated fairly effectively after his death, as he achieves the secret to immortality (of a sort).
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:19 PM
I think Exhibit A in my argument that the Jedi had become too dogmatic is their refusal to accept Qui-Gon's view of the Force,

I see your point - I think the funny thing about that is that we're speaking of the same dogma. I believe Qui-Gon's interpretation of their roles was closer to their true calling than what the Jedi had allowed themselves to become. You are right, when dogma overrides the act of choice, it blinds you. That being said, there is good dogma, and their is bad dogma. Bad dogma is the kind that you enforce without thinking. Good dogma is the kind you embrace through understanding.
  brandow
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:26 PM
Fair enough.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 1:51 PM
Now that, ladies and gentlemen, was a meeting of the minds. If all discussions on this site could go so smoothly :0) Democracy in action.
  ThrawnRocks1
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 2:14 PM
If all discussions on this site could go so smoothly :0)

>snorts< Really.
Bekkara
The Wroshyr Tree
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 8:59 PM
when dogma overrides the act of choice, it blinds you

"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present"
--Abraham Lincoln
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 9:16 PM
Ooo - good quotage. Abe's a fave, too.

  skywalker27199
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 9:30 PM
I LOVE HAYDEN!!!!!! HAYDEN IS A HOTTIE!!!!!!!
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 27, 2005 10:35 PM
Well...alright then. I suppose he does have nice hair.
  Grand Admiral Veers0
date Posted: Oct 28, 2005 1:24 AM
Wow... just wow Moose. I new you were good at what you do but wow. Every time an entry like this comes up I have to ajust my entire view of the Saga. I am thankful that people like you still find it neccesary, even enjoyable, to praise the work and vision of a brilliant man like Mister Lucas. Anyway, wow... I think I will read it again for posterity
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 28, 2005 1:34 AM
Thanks - I do believe it is more tightly drawn together than people may realize. What people say later reflects back on their past experiences. Reconciling the circle of past to present is key in the saga.
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Oct 28, 2005 1:15 PM
Interesting points to all except skywaker27199 who seems to be invading everybody's blog. Whenever the change in the Jedi happened it was well before TPM. Qui-Gonn was already an outcast of the counsel and at the beginning of AOTC, Mace says "there are not enought Jedi, we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers (or something like that)" basically already saying in not so many words that, he will fight if there was an army to lead, just tell us what to do. I think Dooku's fall started out as him trying to better the galaxy and fed up with the direction of the Jedi. Don't forget the one Jedi who seemed to know how to really make moral choices (Qui-Gonn) was a Padawan of Dooku's.
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Oct 28, 2005 1:17 PM
I hate to take up another post in your blog, but that stupid 750 charachters thing. I was just going to add, do you ever get tired of our endless admiration for you DM? Good stuff as usual to you and good topic Ryan Kaufman.
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Oct 28, 2005 1:28 PM
One more thing, you quoted the Decleration of Independence, and I think its important to look at one more piece of history. (Apologies to all Cathiolics that might take offecne). During the Reformation of the Church, some thought it necessary to go back to the basics because of all the new rules and regulations had gotten away from the central message. I believe Qui-Gonn was of that same spirit. He might have been upset with all the rules (attatchment, love, THE Republic) that the Jedi had gotten away from their central message. I'm done DM, sorry for taking up three posts (please delete any if you feel necessary).
  Xilent_shadow900
date Posted: Oct 28, 2005 6:48 PM
I think that the Jedi who refused to fight in the war had the same line of thoughts as you. Namely K'kruhk, or Jeisel.

BTW, second chapter of fafdic done
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 29, 2005 12:36 AM
was just going to add, do you ever get tired of our endless admiration for you DM?

No it's great, but I don't aspire to admiration because really, I don't deserve admiration - I'm a fan, just like you, so the biggest compliment is to be related to, not so much admired. :0]

During the Reformation of the Church, some thought it necessary to go back to the basics because of all the new rules and regulations had gotten away from the central message. I believe Qui-Gonn was of that same spirit.

A historically relevant thougt - very insightful - I'm Catholic, by the way - Catholicism is a study in religion so lost in red tape that they have lost their way. An astute connection...

  Darthflaga
date Posted: Oct 29, 2005 1:53 PM
True DM they have lost their way. I'm also catholic by the way.

I guess the ancient Sith Lord Darth Bane who started the rule of two saw this coming. The sith with they endless patience knew this and were waiting for this moment to finally strike the jedi. Sidious realizing the jedi had lost their way were deafeatable after all. He used this to his advantage and succeed in deafeating them where other Sith Lords have not. Maybe that was also the reasons why the jedi powers started to diminish in the first place.

Great Blogs Ryan and DM.
  Vader, without trace of Anakin
date Posted: Oct 30, 2005 3:15 PM
Yes, the Jedi has failed, they were blinded. They are so weak, not strong enough to see through the clouds of the dark side of the Force. Yoda, the powerful Jedi of all? Yet he cannot see the future, nor does he knows that he is standing next to a Sith Lord in meeting. Well, I am glad that Darth Sidious commands Order 66 to be carried out, cheers.
  jedi_339
date Posted: Oct 31, 2005 4:04 AM
Very well written, Bravo, mind you moose, witht eh reference to the guns, and being afraid of them, most of the time they're pointing at you aren't they, is it still hunting season over there, or are you safe for the time being. Anyway I digress, Incredibly detailed analysis of The fall of the Jedi, Do you see the world through Discourses, and idealogies by any chance. It is similar to WWI for the Australian people, Australia as a relativey young nation
  jedi_339
date Posted: Oct 31, 2005 4:08 AM
had never seen war first hand, and when all the diggers went to Gallipoli to fight, The people were united and happy under the Aussie Flag, however many diggers were disowned when they returned because of the physical scars, many had suffered, It's like the Jedi, fighting for freedom and Democracy, yet they are declared enemies for no reason whatsoever

P.S I'm an Australian, in case you didn't pick up on that, and for the record, we only shoot feral pigs and water buffalo strictly no moose
  Jedi Lord Archangel
date Posted: Oct 31, 2005 10:02 AM
Much props to both Ryan and DM for these blogs! I'm still puzzeled that the Jedi were the only ones that really questioned the purpose of the clones (which that question was put to the wayside quick). You would think that Bail, Padme, Mon Mothma, and the other senators that sided with them would have started raising questions as to where these clones came from, who paid for them, etc.....
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Oct 31, 2005 1:11 PM
Very well written, Bravo, mind you moose, witht eh reference to the guns, and being afraid of them, most of the time they're pointing at you aren't they, is it still hunting season over there, or are you safe for the time being.

You know the funny thing about guns also, it just occurs to me, is that it's not always the gun pointed at you that you should fear - it's the one you can't see. At least you know who you're present threat is...
  darth purple7
Where did Kenobi go?
date Posted: Nov 01, 2005 5:43 PM
DM, no offence, but I have to disagree with you.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Nov 02, 2005 8:35 AM
That's no problem at all, I disagree with people all the time. :0) If we all agreed, we wouldn't live in a democracy. Can you elaborate?
  TIE Leader Alpha
date Posted: Nov 09, 2005 7:37 PM
The Jedi had a lot of problems by the time of their demise.

The Sith aside, they were blind to the corruption within the Senate itself. They were defending a stagnant power, a government in decline. I would call this self-deception, and unwillingness to believe that the organization that they live and die for was turning into an abomination. And I'm completely diregarding Sidious here. The stranglehold of unions and organizations such as the Trade Federation on the Senate is proof enough of this corruption.

(continues next post)
  TIE Leader Alpha
date Posted: Nov 09, 2005 7:38 PM
In short, the Jedi were noble leaders, but were so busy lifting up their noses or looking down upon the galaxy that they didn't spend any time looking straight forward. The result was morality defending an increasingly immoral society instead of trying to change it.
  TIE Leader Alpha
date Posted: Nov 09, 2005 8:43 PM
A historically relevant thougt - very insightful - I'm Catholic, by the way - Catholicism is a study in religion so lost in red tape that they have lost their way. An astute connection...

True DM they have lost their way. I'm also catholic by the way.

A remark not meant to draw from my relevant statements-

I'm Catholic too (woo... we should start a club...) and I do agree that in a lot of ways the congregation has lost their focus, but if you guys are so doubtful of the church itself's validity, why are you still part of it? Or do you hold to the beliefs of Catholicism, but not to the spirit of the modern following? Because in that case I am completely with you.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Nov 09, 2005 10:41 PM
I would say this:
Just as the Jedi should have questioned the state of their beliefs and convictions, and not doing so had tragic consequences, so it is with any faith - espeically Catholicism. If we had applied more effort toward questioning the direction of our church and our clergy, we would have arrived at conclusions that we've found the hard way - through failure and disturbing revelation. Faith never requires proof, but it does require questions.

And because the Jedi never stopped to ask such questions of themselves, and of those powers that be, they found their own downfall.
  TIE Leader Alpha
date Posted: Nov 10, 2005 6:42 AM
well I certainly agree that questioning one's own righteousness is what can eventually strengthen or refine it, but that response was still a little unclear. I will again quote you:

Catholicism is a study in religion so lost in red tape that they have lost their way.

This is in the present tense, whereas the above post was in the past. In addition, the words "they" and "their" imply that you don't consider yourself a part of that group. So do you consider yourself a Catholic? And if so, do you think the current church is corrupt?

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Nov 10, 2005 7:20 AM
Outright corruption and "losing their way" are two different things, the former being insidiously malicious, the latter perhaps a natural result of all ancient endeavors. I consider myself a Catholic. I speak in past tense because its in the past that we should have been reviewing our own dogma and our own directions. Now, presently, we're doing damage control. Catholicism is locked into a poorly chosen and poorly understood pattern of denial and indifference. Though its still possible to find its way, it should have never fallen prey to it's own lack of self-scrutiny. The "red tape" in question is the dogmatic protocol that prevents such introspection. But we digress...Catholicism is just one comparison to the problems of the Jedi.
Yodafan776
date Posted: Dec 02, 2005 6:59 AM
Moose, I have a question for you. The title of your piece is a quote from Yoda that in the context of ESB referred to Luke's disbelief in the Force. Luke failed because he couldn't believe that it could be done. How much of the cause of the Jedi demise goes to this?
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Dec 02, 2005 8:44 AM
I quote that here because although Yoda's comments were specifically about Luke's disbelief in the power of the Force, in a wider sense, it was about Luke's inability at that moment to "unlearn what he had learned". Luke had become accustomed to thinking about things in a certain way, and Yoda's instruction throughout was geared toward changing his point of view. It was this same inability to objectively view and act on the core tenets of Jedism that led the Jedi astray. The Jedi had become accustomed to policing democracy instead of being the stewards of it. Likewise, they had lost their commitment to harmony with the Force.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Dec 02, 2005 8:46 AM
All Luke had to do is believe in the Force. All the Jedi had to do is believe in their true calling. From these two vantage points on the ideas of faith and belief, and the loss thereof, we can see why Yoda would be so hard on Luke. It was the most serious commitment to Yoda, and who better than he to impart this - he had seen the Jedi's decline over 900 years.

Yoda's quote, though truly fixed on Luke's smaller problem, seems very appropriate in the broader sense of what a Jedi should and should not be.
Yodafan776
date Posted: Dec 02, 2005 10:59 AM
I see how the concept of belief in the Force can be applied in many ways. Anakin, for instance, spoke all the right phrases but failed because he didn't truly believe. And I have always felt that Obi-Wan's belief in the Force is ultimately what made him powerful enough to battle Vader in ROTS and come out victorious. By all odds, he should have lost to Vader, but he survived, his belief in the Force beyond everything that gave him protection and strength. The last thing Obi-Wan wanted to do was kill Anakin, yet he accepted the burden for a greater purpose of saving the galaxy from the most powerful Sith ever. How did he know that this wasn't another mistake?
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