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Moose Poodoo
date posted: Jan 26, 2006 4:52 PM  |  updated: Jan 30, 2006 7:45 PM
Born of Two Masters
We all understand the roles of Obi-Wan and Yoda in training Luke. Right?

Both sought to open his mind to the Force., and to understand the nature of the power locked away in him.

Both sought to nurture him to fight for good, and to abhor evil.

Both wanted to protect him from truths that would harm him, and provide him with the truths that would guide him.

Both wanted him to understand his weaknesses so that he could best overcome them.

Both of them wanted him to find inner peace, to quiet his mind to better listen to the Force.

Both of them wanted him to pass on the Jedi way, so that their lofty purpose could be reborn in the Galaxy.

Both of them wanted to teach Luke that a Jedi is passive, only using the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

Both of them wanted him to avoid anger, fear, aggression, for the Dark Side are they.

Both of them wanted him to do the right thing.

And both of them wanted Luke to kill Darth Vader.

Murder him.
Chop him in half.
Destroy him.


...

err?

With all the time and effort Obi-Wan and Yoda have taken to teach Luke the ways of the Force as well as the Jedi philosophy regarding the defense of peace and justice, even at the expense of their own lives, that last bit (you know, the murder part) seems just a tad bit contradictory. Forget contradictory, it's a betrayal of the Jedi way.

Beyond that, they both must have learned how the Jedi were caught up in a web of deception that led the Jedi into open warfare, and to their demise. And yet here they are, apparently wanting Luke to fight the last battle of the Clone Wars, the last battle to protect the Republic from the Dark Side, using the exact same methods that proved ineffective the last go around.
Or are they? Yes, and no.

The Lessons of Obi-Wan:
Firstly, let's look at Obi-Wan, and what his experiences have taught him. As a padawan, Obi-Wan was the first Jedi to defeat a Sith in combat in an age or more. Obi-Wan's tenacity, and his adherence to the principles of the Jedi had served him well.

And yet the Sith monster had grown a new head in the place of Maul's, and this next one was not so easy to dispatch. Obi-Wan and his padawan Anakin were both stricken down by Dooku. Only by virtue of Yoda's Jedi prowess were either of them saved, and Dooku sent running to the safety of his master. It was not until later, when a wiser Anakin and a still resolute Obi-Wan meet Dooku again, that they defeat him.

Sith are dropping, slowly, all around Obi-Wan. He can see the path to victory over the Sith, because he has seen them defeated, killed, firsthand...

And even then..another head is growing on the beast.

By the time Obi-Wan fights his last battle with the Sith, he knows one thing - if you keep coming, if you don't let them instill fear in you, you can win. But Obi-Wan has always been fighting the apprentice, or at least a Sith underling - regardless, the products of Sith teachings, not the source. He's never fought the Master. For that reason, Obi-Wan's perception on how to defeat evil may be skewed, or at least incomplete.

And so Obi-Wan is charged by Yoda with one of his last campaigns: "Defeat the Sith we must." He moves to battle the last evil head to grow in the place of Maul, in the place of Dooku, in the place of Ventress: His own padawan, friend, brother in life and arms, Anakin.

The outcome, though undoubtedly painful to endure, doesn't do much to change Obi-Wan's perceptions on the matter of Sith, and how to defeat them. Show no fear, show no conflict, show no thought for oneself or those dear to you. There is no one more important to deal with than your quarry. When Obi-Wan left Anakin on the dark slopes of Mustafar, literally ablaze with hatred and malice, Obi-Wan had been proven right again. Good defeated Evil, because Good had to.

And yet...the beast was again growing another head...

The Teachings of Yoda:
Let's look now at Yoda's experience with the Sith. Prior to his direct involvement in the fight, the Galaxy had benefited from a long absence of the Sith. Then, like Obi-Wan, Yoda was forced to endure the pain and disappointment of fighting his own former padawan: Dooku.

Yoda, like Mace, had seen the path to victory much the way Obi-Wan did. In fact, Yoda appears to have even fostered that viewpoint in him and other Jedi on his watch. And like Mace, Yoda marches headlong into battle, but perhaps with a little more reluctance than Mace or Obi-Wan. It's clear to the master that something is amiss, and it troubles him.

He and Dooku fight, and he nearly defeats him by employing the same tactics - show no fear, be resolute in the fight for good over evil. But Dooku, unlike Maul, changes the playing board and makes his old Master make a choice - defeat a Sith, or save two lives (Obi-Wan and Anakin).

Yoda cuts off his withering attack and opts to save his Jedi. And now, already we start to see a change in Yoda's approach. Whereas Obi-Wan is relentless and unafraid, Yoda sees there are some things not worth sacrificing. Yoda listens intently to the Force, and the Force guides him. Oddly, in this case, it guides him away from destroying a Sith.

On Yoda's next battle with the Sith, he faces the Master, Darth Sidious. Again Yoda pushes through the darkness and deceit, through the fear and doubt, to strike at the heart of the Sith Menace. In the process, though, Yoda finds that the harder he fights, and the more Force abilities he calls upon, the more he strikes out in Righteousness to defeat this blight on civilization and peace, the more he loses. As Stover said, the brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

From both of these experiences, Yoda learns a hard lesson, even at his venerable age of 9 centuries: You can not fight the Sith from without. You can not espouse the ideas of peace and justice, and seek to defeat evil with violence and aggression. To strike out with vengeful righteousness, however rooted in good intention, is to feed the powerhouse that is the Sith. They crave anger, the thirst aggression, and they grow fear. They are gathered to these things as if ghosts to the living, coveting them for their own life force. It gives them focus.

At the end of this lesson, with his last clawing effort, Yoda falls, but not without having been changed forever.

Points of View:
Now we see a possibility of diverging thoughts between Obi-Wan and Yoda. They are still complimentary points of view, mind you, but the end results of their counsel may be very different. To fight evil, you do need a steadfast heart, and an tenacious grasp on our task at hand. And yet, to fight evil, you need to recognize when evil is using you against yourself. And above all, to fight evil, you can not become evil.

With Luke now in their care, we see a slightly different focus for each master for their student. Obi-Wan immediately sets about teaching Luke to defend himself. Moreover, he gives him what reasons he deems suitable for Luke to fight for. He tells Luke that Vader is evil, and that he destroyed his father. He gives him his father's lightsaber and nearly in the same breath tells Luke "You must learn the ways of the Force." To Obi-Wan, the task at hand is tied to the weapon. The task, therefore, is to kill Vader.

This is not to say he wants Luke to rush off to be cut down prematurely. No, Luke must be carefully trained in the ways only he knows are effective. Luke must ignore the outside influences, the pesky details that fray truth around the edges. The truth is Vader, and the Emperor, are evil and must be destroyed. In short, he is sending Luke to finish what Yoda had sent him to do so many years ago. Obi-Wan has given his life to defeat the Sith. His training is over. He already knows what he needs to know.

This idea is reinforced when Luke returns to Dagobah to finish his training, having been defeated by Vader, and having learned the truth in the process. Luke confronts the ghost of Obi-Wan with the terrible knowledge, and lays at his feet the seeds of defeat...

"I can't kill my own father."

"Then the Emperor has already won," Obi-Wan laments. "You were our only hope."

A truer thing was never said about Obi-Wan's viewpoint on his life, and his struggle with evil:

"...you're going to find that many of the
truths we cling to depend greatly on our
own point of view."


Because it is Obi-Wan's point of view that victory over the Sith will only come at the end of a lightsaber.

Yoda, however, begins Luke's training not with a lightsaber, nor the practice of martial techniques. Yoda likewise doesn't fill Luke's head with reasons to fight. Rather, Yoda begins Luke's first lesson with none other than the tried and true adage: Patience is a Virtue.

Upon his first meeting with Luke, he tests his patience, gauges its shallow depths and sternly sets him straight about his aspirations.

"Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years
have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be
trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious
mind."


He looks beyond, to the incorporeal Obi-Wan, still wailing away on the point, seemingly to both Jedi, and regards Luke's track record:

"This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!"

After sufficiently humbling Luke, then begins the real training - a training of the heart and mind more than the hand and eye. He imparts to Luke some of the core truths of a Jedi's relationship with the Force:

"A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger ... fear ... aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

Luke then asks a central question, one that every padawan must have asked in his or her own way for centuries: "Is the dark side stronger?"

"No...no...no," Yoda answers with conviction. "Quicker, easier, more seductive."

"But how am I to know the good side from the bad?"

"You will know," Yoda says, full of belief. "When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

This is not just the sophic rhetoric of an old master. Yoda learned this, face to face with evil. He felt it's cold breath on his face, smelled its foul stench, battled it to the edge of his might, and lost. And there is no more valuable lesson, no more deeply ingrained shift of anyone's personal paradigm than the things you learn when you lose. Life itself is our own teacher in this - The lessons of defeat are more powerful, and more lasting, and somehow more real, than when you win.

Yoda tests Luke further to see if he's grasped the finer points of this counterintuitive philosophy at the Cave. Much has been said of the Failure of the Cave over the years, but this may be the most central point to the Cave: It is a preamble to Luke's eventual destiny in the Emperor's lair.

Yoda tells Luke he must enter, but warns him of the true nature of this test.

"That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is. In you must go."

"What's in there?" Luke asks.

"Only what you take with you."

And as Luke dons his weapons, perhaps to Yoda's disappointment, but not surprise, he gives him one last hint:

"Your weapons...you will not need them."

We know the outcome, of course, is that Luke meets the specter of Vader and destroys it, only to find that he has defeated none other than himself.

The lesson, then, is clear. Luke had anger, and fear, and answered them with aggression. Had he left his weapons behind, so he would have left aggression behind, and he would have dealt with fear and anger without fighting. What he took with him were the shadows of the Dark Side, and the Dark Side seeks those footholds out, and leverages upon them. In other words, Luke gave this domain of evil all it needed to defeat him. Sadly, Luke would later fail at Cloud City for similar reasons.

But once again, what we learn in defeat can be more powerful than what we learn in victory. Luke was armed now with many truths. He knew who he was. He knew who Darth Vader was. And more importantly, he knew who he used to be. And most of all, Luke knew, as Yoda knew, that to fight the Dark Side with the same primal forces that comprise its matrix of evil is to succumb to it.

And in Yoda's words, we find the truth of his intentions. Never does Yoda once say "you must kill Vader." He never even says the word "destroy". Luke's first assignment has no such instructions:

"No more training do you require. Already know
you that which you need."


"Then I am a Jedi?"

"Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You
must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi
will you be. And confront him you will."


Yoda has been grooming him for one task - to confront him. Does Yoda know where this path will lead? This remains a mystery, but one thing is clear - Yoda is guided closely by the Force. Everything in Yoda's training of Luke speaks to inner strength, focus, passivity, calm, and to avoid anger, hatred, fear, aggression. Yoda may not know to what end he is sending Luke, but it's certainly not to kill. Yoda had tried that, and failed. Luke's role had to be different, and therefore his mission. Luke had to succeed where he, Obi-Wan and Mace had failed, and that meant unlearning what they had learned, and teaching a new methodology.

The proof is in the pudding. Faced with the ultimate test, the one that Yoda, and Mace, and Obi-Wan, and many other Jedi had failed, Luke won by throwing his weapons away, and therefore his fear, his anger, and his aggression along with them. This was Luke's trial, perhaps one the hardest trials ever faced by a Jedi: to be caught in between righteousness and hatred, and to be at the head of the path of fear, anger, hatred and suffering, and then to turn away knowing where the path would lead.

He could see it in himself, he could see it in his father, he could see it in Yoda, and even see it Obi-Wan. To fight the Sith from without was a fool's errand. To profess peace and justice while swinging a lightsaber was a heretical contradiction of the Jedi way, born in lies propagated by the Dark Side.

Luke, then, was trained first by a Jedi to defend himself, and to know what it took to fight evil. He completed his training with all he needed to know, which was that you could not seek to defeat the Sith from without, you had to change them from within. Whereas Obi-Wan was apparently grooming a holy assassin, Yoda was building a guardian of the Jedi Order, and a new bastion of its principles. Yoda knew that Luke would make the right choice, and only guided him to his appointment with his destiny knowing in his own heart, making his own decisions, of what really was the right thing to do - to appeal to compassion. If there was any good left, find it, and reclaim it. This would be the only way Anakin could fulfill his prophecy.

Perhaps Obi-Wan had given up on the idea of the prophecy. Perhaps he saw no hope for a Chosen One to restore Balance. Or perhaps he thought that person was never Anakin, but was his son. This coupled with his own experiences shaped his teachings to Luke. The ironic aspect of that would be Obi-Wan's assertion to Yoda and Mace, before Anakin's turn, that the Prophecy could still be real, and that Anakin would defeat the Sith. But in the end, Obi-Wan saw no other alternative but to send Luke to finish his last battle with an old friend.

Yoda, on the other hand, never meant for Luke to kill Vader. He meant for Luke to confront him without aggression, and without those shadows of the Dark Side that had mired everyone else. Luke was meant to resurrect and uphold the peaceful ideals that had once bound the Galaxy together. The same ideals that lay dormant in Vader's dark heart.

Now, this would seem to render Obi-Wan irrelevant, or even dangerously aberrant in their united cause to defeat the Sith. Not so, I believe. I think that, like most everyone is the product of multiple views starting with two parents or more than one guardian or more than one mentor, Luke was an amalgam born of these two masters. Obi-Wan taught Luke steadfastness and courage. Yoda taught him peace and vigilance. In the end, a lesson is not truly learned until you make it your own, drawn from the different viewpoints that make up every luminous being. Luke's decision was an elegant merging of the two, then - to be vigilant against the Dark Side, to be tenacious in pursuit of good, never to fight anger with anger, but to find peace with peace.

Only then could Luke declare, with the certainty that only true understanding can provide:

"I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

  Jadakin
Hyperspace
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 4:56 PM
How come you write very big and long blogs. You are basically explaining Star Wars Episodes 4, 5, and 6. Anyway it is a good blog. By the way do you remember me, I am sorry for putting you on my blacklist.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 5:01 PM
How come you write very big and long blogs.

No, I am explaining a oft misunderstood point - that Luke wasn't sent to kill Vader. Episodes 4, 5 and 6 were a tad longer than this blog entry, and sold more merchandise.

And yes I remember you. To answer your question, I write longer blogs than you may be accustomed to because I like to write. Easy cheesey.
  Jadakin
Hyperspace
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 5:03 PM
I thought his role was to help fight back against The Sith and revive The Jedi Order.
  Jadakin
Hyperspace
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 5:06 PM
I thought Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda wanted him to kill The Emperor more.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 5:10 PM
Well..no. Obi-Wan believed that the path to victory meant killing Vader, and then the Emperor. Yoda, however, may have seen a broader truth - that killing had been tried and tried, but never succeeded in ridding them of the Sith.

Victory, then, had to be achieved another way - without weapons. Yoda knew, then, that Luke was not being sent on an assasin's mission. That's why ROTJ ends they way it does - with the redemption of Anakin, not his murder.
  lord_divious94
Come to the darkside...we have cookies
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 6:06 PM
Well I aplaud this blog, I have never read a blog and wanted to read more and more one the subject. You had me in a trance. I think that your point is very valid, Yoda still remebering the porphecy had luke confront Vader not destroy. I look forward to more of your blogs, i think i will go check on your other ones. Keep it up
  lord_divious94
Come to the darkside...we have cookies
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 6:12 PM
I have never read a blog and wanted to read more and more one the subject

Edit: I have never read a blog and wanted to read more and more on one subject
Michelle1968
M68- Star Wars Kid at Heart
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 7:19 PM
Moose, that was wonderful. I truly, deeply, loved it. The way you do that, explaining in detail your thoughts... well, it just brings a higher level of insight, intelligence and accuracy to the world of SW blogging and to us all .....Thank you :x


  Diviner525
In the Flesh
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 7:37 PM
OUTSTANDING!! DM, you have unleashed a very incredible Smart Bomb here. Holy smokes, this will probably take me three or four reads to truly comprehend.

If you keep coming, if you don't let them instill fear in you, you can win.

Best line you've ever written. This is my view of Obi-wan to the letter. I will read this blog many times more, but all I can write at the moment is you made me spill my beer. You owe one Coors Light!

:DD525.
  Darth Kevinmhk
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 7:38 PM
Great blog Moose~

1. Obi-Wan taught Luke defense first is reasonable, they were on a mission
into Imperial territory, and they knew the Princess was intercepted by Imperial
forces (otherwise she wont send those droids). Yoda, however, was teaching
Luke on a remote planet with the presence of darkness which kept Yoda from
Sidious for 20 years. One word: Safe. So i guess if Obi-Wan survived the Death
Star, in time he will offer Luke what Yoda had offered.

2. If GL didnt show how Yoda is wiser than even the old Ben, what good is to
introduce a new Jedi Master :D ?
  Darth Kevinmhk
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 7:41 PM
3. You should quote Yoda & Obi-Wan's discussion on Tantive IV (Novel)
Yoda's words had enough weight to show that he is wiser than Obi-Wan.
Jedi training is not the only way to stay in the light, natural simple life can.
Self discipline can be mastered with a normal life, skills came in the second
when the time is right.

4. It was Qui-Gon Jinn, the loyal follower of the living Force asked Obi-Wan
not to tell the truth to Luke !! (The Rise of Darth Vader)

5. So, i wonder what if Mace Windu threw away his amethyst blade
in front of the deformed Sidious and said "I am a Jedi, like old Yoda on Kashyyyk!" :D ?
  jediracer41
Jediracer
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 8:01 PM
Excellent distinction between Obi-Wan and Yoda here. Most people miss it. Unfortunately, I think you might have put it in too large a box for most people to have the patience to find it...but I think it's a magnificently done blog.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 8:01 PM
So, i wonder what if Mace Windu threw away his amethyst blade
in front of the deformed Sidious and said "I am a Jedi, like old Yoda on Kashyyyk!"


We may never know. It's hard to imagine reclaiming any compassion in Anakin's heart at that moment, but perhaps if Anakin had seen a peaceful Mace with no malice, attacked by Palpatine, perhaps he would have seen the greater truth - nothing good would ever come from such evil. But that's a whole nuther blog ...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 8:03 PM
Thanks everyone for your comments :0) Glad you like it - sorry for the eye-watering length ...

Oh and for any spilled beer on my account, of course. A beer is a terrible thing to waste.
  Son of a Bith
The Cantina Corner
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 8:30 PM
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world is blind." (or something like that...)

- Mohandas Gandhi
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 8:59 PM
Great quote and very relevant - likewise, a tooth for a tooth and everyone's eating Jell-O and creamed banana for a while...
  Rogue Squadron Leader
After-Action Summary
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 10:12 PM
Nice job DM...

now for the real question, did you just sit down, open a new blog entry and go...or did you C&P from a word processor that you had been working on for a while? ;)
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 10:35 PM
now for the real question, did you just sit down, open a new blog entry and go...or did you C&P from a word processor that you had been working on for a while?

Interesting question - both actually.

Yes, I just sat down and wrote this all in one shot.

But I did use Word first, because typing all of that online in one go, when wonky things can happen and you can't save your work, is risky.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 10:35 PM
So I typed it all out from about 5:30 to 6:15pm or so (Texas time), C&P to my blog, and there ya go. Now, whats in the blog I've had in my head for quite a while now. I've said these things in bits and pieces in the comments of other people's blogs, and on the boards for several years. I just finally decided to collect them into one big word sausage and serve it up on a bun.

so both, really...
  Edhelwen Emileia
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 10:46 PM
I must say, I do so love your word pictures, Moose. :o)
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 10:48 PM
I must say, I do so love your word pictures, Moose. :o)

Thanks - although I am guilty on more than one occasion of mixing metaphors rather heinously. :0)
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 11:00 PM
this is the biggest blog EVER!:D the blog that ate sw.com

i will argue one thing from the beginning - that obi and yoda didnt neccessarily teach luke to abhor or hate evil. i dont think that would have been encouraged.

another thing (ill have to read this in its entirety tommorrow - it is very late for me).... i have looked very closely at this subject in the films, where the jedi use the term destroy, they dont ever use the literal direction to kill. i try to read the implication as destroying the evil, but not neccessarily directed at the individual in which the evil resides.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 11:05 PM
I just finally decided to collect them into one big word sausage and serve it up on a bun.

is this where we go to request a vomiting yodacon?:p
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 26, 2006 11:27 PM
I think you've got the gist of it then - killing Vader wasn't really the point of Luke's training. And yes, I've often said that destroying Vader had little to do with killing - it had to do with bringing down the persona that locks Anakin away from the light.

I think when you read all of it you'll see it'll jive with your thoughts...
  Vader of Clubs
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 3:32 AM
My point of view has oft been that Obi-Wan wasn't a particularily good teacher, and that if Leia hadn't been in trouble he might've taken Luke to Yoda first anyway. But that's mostly because they have two different styles of training - Obi teaches Luke as a Padawan, while Yoda gives him the basis for his training, as he would a Youngling - their roles in times past.

  Vader of Clubs
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 3:32 AM
Not that that's really relevent but two things you didn't point out:

1) All of Yoda's training of others in Clones is with the 'sabre - the Younglings, Obi: If you spent as much time on your driving as you did practising your lightsabre, you could be as good as Master Yoda!

2) Yoda, of Obi-Wan's teaching:
"You must unlearn what you have learned!"

Surprised you dinnae use that last one.
  Vader of Clubs
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 3:44 AM
Meaning that Yoda once started with the sabre then got over it, was the point of the first one. Supporting your argument and the like. 'cause it is pretty much true, although I'd like to think that the trust shown in Luke rather than the distrust of Anakin was what saved him - if Mace had been less fearful of Anakin, leading him to anger at this impudent little welk of a Jedi, then hatred of the Sith Menace, Palpatine as Senator and the boy he thought of as an usurper, maybe he wouldn't have suffered so much under the lightning, and gone splat on the streets of Coruscant.

I also had an idea that "balance to the Force" meant no Sith OR Jedi, but this was after Clones and I'd alread read the post-Jedi pre-NJO series of Books, so . . .
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 5:56 AM
Those are really good points, Vader of Clubs, and the quotes are very telling. Not there's anything wrong with this, but it certainly seems Obi-Wan was more concerned with a lightsaber then Yoda was in teaching. Lest we forgot his continuous counsel to Anakin: "This weapon is your life."

Ironically, however, it was always Obi-Wan restraining Anakin from "slash first, ask questions later" tactics. He had truly created his own monster.

On the subject of Balance of the Force, if you get a chance, read Balance - The Force, Fact, Fiction and Fate and let me know what you think...
  Vader of Clubs
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 6:38 AM
I do believe Obi-Wan blamed himself for Anakin's fall, though. He does sacrifice his life to allow Luke to escape, and to show that fighting is not always the way:

"There are alternatives to fighting."

It's been a while since I watched the whole trilogy (possibly since the days after Sith . . . :O) so I can't remember the bit before that. And it is to Han rather than Luke.

I seem to write a lot more than 750 characters most of the time, so I also have thoughts Herehttp://blogs.starwars.com/moosepoodo/17/comments on Balance.
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 7:36 AM
Great blog, I touched on something similar in my blog yesterday regarding Ben and Yoda's actions. They certainly knew a lot more than Luke, and were very devisive in their use of that knowledge to 'guide' Luke to where they wanted him to go. With his headstrong nature, not as evident as Anakin but there nonetheless, they had to be cautious.
But it should be noted, Ben and Yoda's aims would differ. Yoda would see a different way - the path to redemption, as taught to him by Qui-Gon ("Love is the answer to the darkness").
But Ben was betrayed by Anakin, he fought him twice in combat. He was murdered by Ben. Perhaps Ben did intend for Vader to be killed. "You must face Darth Vader again."
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 7:39 AM
But Yoda understood Luke perhaps better than Ben did (after all, Yoda spent many long weeks during Empire personally training Luke, Ben was with him for just a day or so in Star Wars and didn't appear to him until three years later on Hoth). He knew that Luke loved the father he'd never known, and would try to save him if he could. After all, that was never spelled out to him, never verbalised. It's quite clear in the film that Ben and Yoda are saying "Kill him." But Yoda perhaps understood Luke better.
(It's worth mentioning that this was all wrapped and sold on video numerous times before the prophecy was even thought of.)
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 7:43 AM
So Yoda was smarter in regards to destroying the Sith and fulfilling the Prophecy than Ben was. Luke was the instrument, of Ben and Yoda and the entire Jedi Order.
Your blog lays it out brilliantly, the difference between Bens attitude of justice at the end of a sabre and Yoda's much more subtle ways, taught to him by Qui-Gon.
Ahh, Star Wars. It's way more than a kids film. We could discuss stuff like this for another 30 years...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 8:01 AM
Thanks for the comments janlomona - the funny thing about it is the differences were there even before the PT came out. Obi-Wan and Yoda are never quite eye to eye on Luke - even to start training Luke. The only thing they seemed to agree on was Luke should not rush into things without understanding more about the Force. Another thing to note is sometimes what we as viewers perceive as "on-screen" time is not necessarily in-universe time.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 8:01 AM
For the sake of economy (Lucas does so love to edit) what appears to be days may actually be weeks. This may have been true, for instance, in the Falcon's flight from Hoth to Bespin without the aid of Hyperspace. So I think its possible at least that Luke spent significantly longer time with Yoda than with Ben, but likewise could have spent longer than we may perceive with Ben. There are gaps in time on Tatooine and on the way to Alderaan that could comprise more time than there appears to be.
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:31 AM
I wish I could write. This is almost exactly how I've felt abou the change in the Jedi, specificaly Obi-Wan and Yoda. Loved how you described the Yoda fight versus Palps, more aggression fed right into Sidious. The SW saga is so cool, and I've taken flak for ROTJ being one of my favorites. From the moment Luke meets with Vader is some of the best storytelling I've ever seen. Yes Luke had been trained not to fight Vader but to confront him. Don't forget though that Luke was also not turned away from something PT Jedi were-attatchment. Luke's love for his Father and friends helped him. He was willing to do whatever it took to save his father. Great stuff DM and I hope you didn't take off from work to write this.:)
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:32 AM
That's true about the trip to Alderaan, that always stood out as a bit of loose editing (easy for us to say in 2006 with gazeteers and starmaps), but clearly the timescale in Empire was significant - a lot had to happen, and the Force isn't taught easily. Luke went from raw recruit to someone able to (for a while at least) hold his own with Vader. And Vaders own motives seemed to change during the sabre fight. He goes from wanting to carbon freeze Luke (why? What was he scared of?) to telling him the ultimate truth in order to side his son with him in a fight against the Emperor. What changed in Darths mind?
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:34 AM
I personally think Vader wanted Luke frozen so he couldn't sway him. As his son, and a palpable reminder of what he had lost (Padme), Luke touched the good that was deep within him. Yoda would sense that, having sussed young Anakin out a long time ago, but after seeing what Ani did to Padme on Mustafar, perhaps Ben would not. Vader knew that Luke's words and actions could stir something deep within himself.
And also the sense of self-preservation. Palpatine wanted Luke to replace Vader, but if Vader could get Luke on his side then together they could finish off the Emperor, and fulfill the Prophecy
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:35 AM
It would be a deeply unusual way for the Prophecy of the Chosen One to come to fruition, but the Emperor would have been defeated, and Vader wold have an heir.
Hmmm, never thought of it all that way before. Sorry to ramble DM but you've set off another train of thought from the station platform in my head.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:46 AM
It would be a deeply unusual way for the Prophecy of the Chosen One to come to fruition, but the Emperor would have been defeated, and Vader wold have an heir.

But Vader fulfilled the prophecy by destroying the Emperor and himself - therefore all of the Sith. If Vader had simply overthrown the Emperor, whether it was his son or some other apprentice, the Sith would have still existed, and the Force would therefore remain unbalanced. It would be just as imperiled if Vader took Luke as his heir and apprentice...so really the Prophecy would be all the further from fulfillment.

It's an all or nothing deal - destroy all of the Sith, not just Palpy...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:53 AM
I personally think Vader wanted Luke frozen so he couldn't sway him.

That's a very interesting theory.

And also the sense of self-preservation. Palpatine wanted Luke to replace Vader, but if Vader could get Luke on his side then together they could finish off the Emperor, and fulfill the Prophecy

Yep - that ties right into my entry called "How is that Possible" - Vader and Palpy have been plotting against one another for a long time now - as Sith are prone to do.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 10:55 AM
And you may have something there about Vader thinking he was fulfilling the prophecy, because, after all, Vader believes he is on the right side, the true nature of the Force. But somehow, I think he knows that this could not be further from the truth - because there is still one Sith left to deal with after Palpy is gone - himself.
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 11:12 AM
I think Vader did think he was in the right at one time. The "Its too late for me son" line was a recoginition (at least at that point) that he wasn't on the right side. It sounded like he just couldn't risk losing his own life at that point to turn back. it took seeing his son becoming what he was (almost) to finally make him believe that his life wasn't as important as the destruction of the Sith and fufilling the prophecy (although I agree it may not have occured to him that meant his death also). There was alot happening when Anakin made that final decision to disobey his Master. More than listed above, but alot of it.
  DarthVicomte
Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 11:35 AM
Great blog Moose. I am assuming it is great because I have yet to read it, seeing as I'm short on time and I've already read one novel today.;)

Just thought I'd get something in before it filled up, activate my praise after ten o'clock eastern time, I should have read it by then.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 12:07 PM
Oh come on now - it's only 3080 words or so - barely 10 pages of a novel. Eeeasy read. But your pre-praise is duly noted. :0)
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Jan 27, 2006 12:57 PM
your pre-praise is duly noted. :0)

We have to pre-praise you now? Bad enough you are on everyone's blog roll (I still think this automatically happens when you sign up for Hyperspace). Just kidding and here some post-praise right at ya.