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Moose Poodoo
date posted: Feb 21, 2006 2:15 PM  |  updated: Feb 22, 2006 7:56 AM
Destiny by Numbers, 1-2-3
I noticed a couple of thoughts about Destiny lately, and as usual I am inspired by my fellow writers...and with good reason.

Star Wars is one of those experiences that sooner or later make us ask all sorts of questions. Typically, those questions are about what you believe in.

Can one person really make a difference? What is the real the nature of humanity? Is evil really always evil? Is good really good? Is there is an afterlife? What powers do we have locked away? Does black look good on me? Does this armor make my tuckus look fat? What rhymes with Bossk? If an Ewok falls in the woods and there's no one around...anyway you get the point. Questions abound, answers aren't always so easy to produce.

One such question is basic to the human experience, but important:

Do we decide our own Destiny, or are we predestined by some greater Plan?

Lots of us firmly assert our skepticism. There's some merit to believing we direct our own lives, and we have the power to put ourselves in exactly the good or bad places we find ourselves in. It certainly promotes personal responsibility to think this way. Still, some of us let go of these things to end up where life takes them. "Good things come to those who wait" or "Nice things happen to nice people". I would wager that many of the same people that say "I don't believe in Fate" have at least once said "If it was meant to be, then it will be..."

Long and short of it, there are three types of people, and three different answers:

Type #1- People who trust only in themselves
Type #2- People who trust in some Plan
Type #3- People who believe that there's a little of both going on out there.


I happen to believe Type #3, the "Faithful Skeptics", comprise a vast majority of people in the middle between Hope and Will.

Case in point...

A couple of years ago (almost exactly 2 years ago, in fact) I helped a friend of mine purchase a brand new car. Well, I didn't help with the purchase part, I just made sure no one bought that stupid rust undercoating and the pinstripe decals that cost $250.

After a couple of hours of haggling and signing and floormats and whatnots, we took to the road in her brand new Honda. One of the first things I told her was something I learned from experience: "Be careful. This is a brand new car. You're not used to it. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people buy brand new cars and wreck them the same day." She concurred, and reassured me that she was going to take care of her shiny new investment. She's a capable driver. And so we left the parking lot. It started to rain.

We went through the glossy evening streets of Dallas, never breaking the speed limit. We had brand new tires, a reasonable little suspension, and nifty ABS brakes. Armed with caution and reliable machinery, we were doing pretty good.

We reached a particular intersection in a bustling North Dallas suburb, in the heart of various converging bar and restaurant strips. The rain had let up a little, but it still pattered fat drops on the windshield. We made a left turn on the appropriately legal and comforting green arrow light.

Halfway through the well-lit intersection, I caught my first glimpse of trouble. Being on the passenger side (the right side for you lefties of the world) I was closest to it, so it was hard to miss: a dim pair of headlines breaking from the flush formation of stopped cars. They were slow-moving, not really indicative of peril, but then again, peril rarely announces itself with absolute clarity. They got closer, and I then realized they were neither slowing nor veering, I had just enough time to say "You have GOT to be f-"

Not the most useful of warnings, I'll give you that. But, as the George is my witness, there was nothing to prevent a meeting of metal. There was a lateral rush of inertia, a gut-wrenching crumpling noise, the feeling of the arm-rest caving in ever so slightly against my side, tires squealing, and my head going "thoink" against the side window as I stared now suddenly into a very intimate set of headlights.

Fifteen minutes after leaving the lot in a brand new Honda, we had been t-boned by someone's aged dogsled masquerading as an automobile. To our astonishment, he (she?) backed up, headlights dangling, extracted the car from our 2004 Dent LX, whipped around us and left the scene. I resumed my previously interrupted sentence.

Looking on the bright side, we were none the worse, save one jacked up car. My door even opened, and there was no broken glass, no airbag deployed. Those Japanese guys can make a car, lemme tellya. Replaying the whole incident in my mind as we made for the side of the road, I deduced this guy rolled through a red light at about 30 mph or so. Hard enough for a good smack, soft enough to call it playful if cars were throw pillows. Which they ain't.

In the days that followed, as we went through the embarrassing ordeal of explaining to the dealership what had happened, something I half-remembered piqued my curiosity about that intersection, so I did a little digging. Turns out that intersection is one of 10 most dangerous intersections in the nation, according to a major insurance company (actually, I believe in the top 3 that year in terms of number of accidents). In the NATION. I mean, this is the United Freakin' States. You know how many intersections there are here?

So I started adding up the rest of the circumstances:

It was raining.

We were crossing one of the worst intersections in the nation.

It was night time.

Oh yeah, and I forgot. It was Mardi Gras night.

And that intersection has a bar on every corner.

You could say there was no way that accident wasn't going to happen. But there were ways. We just missed our unknown opportunities - arriving a few seconds before or after, picking a different route, perhaps looking more carefully...

There's a saying: "If If's were Fifths we'd all be Drunk". The snockered doofus that smacked a brand new Honda sure was. Luckily for us, we walked away unscathed, and the next day thanks to some other good fortunes, she drove off in another new car. So maybe we dodged a bullet while being hit by one.

But there's another word that's gives rise to questions - Luck. Luck, like Fate, or Destiny, is a purely human invention to help us wrap our minds around complex quantum eventualities.

Destiny, Fate, and Luck are all reasonably close in definition, if you don't count the positive and negative connotations to each respectively. All entail an eventuality, and a path, and means to reach them. All likewise entail an important turning point - a "fateful decision". Basically, they are there to imply that there are no accidents. Some more metaphysically minded will add the element of "predestination": the idea that there is some plan, some design, some hand that guides us inexorably. And perhaps many of us have had the feeling that said Hand reached surreptitiously out of the sky and smacked us on the back of the head when we weren't looking. So for the sake of simplicity, let's just roll them into one big philosophical burrito called "Destiny."

So I put the question to you, then - was this a tiny taste of "Destiny" or was this "Cause and Effect"? Or a little of both? Are you Type #1, 2, or 3?

How I see it - that incident was really the result of a stacked deck. The fact that we were in that intersection at that moment meant that we were at the intersection of many things, let alone rainy streets. The right time, the elements, the right people, the right reasons - or wrong, depending on your point of view - practically made that situation ripe for a tiny catastrophe.

However - we didn't have to be there at the right time. We didn't have to be there at all. It makes the mind reach for another reason, one that I'll concede may not be there. But the point is, it's the reaching, not the finding, that makes us a little different. For many of us, it betrays our true desires. We want to believe in something else.

So whereas I would like to say I'm Type #1 (far be it from me to disappoint you that Moose is not a die-hard skeptic); I have to admit I'm probably Type #3. I believe, or I want to believe, in a little bit of both.

Now, you're probably asking what this has to do with Star Wars?

Well, lots. Ever notice how much importance is placed on the word "Destiny"? It might make us ask not only what type of person we are, but maybe wonder a little bit about what kind of person George Lucas is. It's clear that he believes in a place where there is such a thing. And in that place, Destiny is all important. Destiny is the battleground between good and evil.

The word itself appears about 12 times in the saga, most always in momentous scenes, always by the most important players. Oddly, the first mention comes to us from a good old Type #1 in Episode IV:

"There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."
--Han Solo, coming up on the ruins of Alderaan

Han may at first be like many people out there. He's not convinced there's something pulling his strings, and rather enjoys the idea of being master of his own ways and ends. But he doesn't stay that way, does he? Of course, this is the same person that blurts out "Never tell me the odds!" Complex guy, that Han Solo.

Obi-Wan, however, is a firm believer in Destiny:

"Your destiny lies along a different path than mine. The Force will be with you...always!"
-- Obi-Wan Kenobi, shortly before his death

Or is he? Whereas he strongly believes in Luke's destiny, he doesn't entrust Luke with the truth about who he is, or what happened to anyone 20 years ago. It's not so easy for Obi-Wan to let go, and perhaps it wouldn't be for anyone that felt the guilt he must harbor. It may be that Obi-Wan doesn't put so much stock in Destiny alone. He may be like many of us -wary of his own mistakes, and therefore allows for practical doses of both. Given his "certain point of view", it makes sense that Obi-Wan is in the ranks of Faithful Skeptics.

In Episode V and VI, we start to see the viewpoints of more ardent acolytes on both sides of morality, and everyone joins the fray. Yoda, Vader, and Palpatine - these are diehard Type #2's. They're practically made of of this stuff. Between them, the battle over Destiny has truly begun:

"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny..."
--Yoda, during Luke's training, V

"Your destiny lies with me, Skywalker. Obi-Wan knew this to be true."
-- Darth Vader, fighting Luke, V

"Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny."
-- Darth Vader, revealing his identity to Luke, V

"Luke...it is your destiny."
-- Darth Vader, as Luke flees, V

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
-- Yoda, shortly before his own death, VI

"You cannot escape your destiny."
--the ghost of Obi-Wan, VI

"If that is your destiny..."
-- Darth Vader, as Luke says he'll die before he's turned, VI

"It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine!"
-- Emperor Palpatine, beckoning Luke to the Dark Side, VI

"Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"
-- Emperor Palpatine, after Vader has fallen to Luke, VI

At which point Darth Vader, already grappling with the spirit of Anakin trapped deep within his persona, must have remembered the last time Palpatine said something similar to him:

"You are fulfilling your destiny, Anakin..."
-- Chancellor Palpatine, as Anakin becomes Darth Vader, III

See, just like a slippery intersection on the wrong night, the odds are stacked. As they battle over their various ideas of Destiny, Destiny is planning its own arrival. It provided for Evil and Good alike. It provided Balance, and a means to maintain it. It provided a Prophecy, and a Chosen One. It laid out all the components for a collision of Will and Hope, between those that believe, those that don't, and those that aren't quite sure. Because in the Star Wars saga, Destiny has another name: the Force.

If we were to ask Mr. Lucas to tell us exactly which type of person he was - 1, 2 or 3: Skeptic, Believer, or Both, I really wonder: what would he say? What would you say?

Drive Safely.

DM out

  Bravo 225
"Nice Skirt, Hand Washable?" - "Its a Kama!"
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 2:24 PM
Destiny and Hondas. Gosh, Moose, you've got an imagination!
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 2:32 PM
Destiny and Hondas. Gosh, Moose, you've got an imagination!

Or I'm just a non-linear thinker :0)
  Rive Caedo
Rive's Uncharted Settlements
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 2:47 PM
Everything has an unavoidable destiny... Unless we invent a method of time-travel to change events :)

Whether this is a divine/higher destiny? Hm... I suppose I'm a 3 :D
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 2:54 PM
Everything has an unavoidable destiny...

That's just the thing - what is the nature of that Destiny? Is it just destination, or is it the culmination of a path? And if its a path, how much is coincidence and how much is conciousness? Do we inadvertantly make our own path and blame it elsewhere? Or do we stumble over statistical ottomans ala Dick Van Dyke?

And how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know...
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 2:59 PM
I believe in destiny. As an avid sports fan, I hear "this team controls their own destiny" alot. Huh? If destiny is pre-ordained, than how can you control it? The reason I believe in destiny is because all my sports teams become heartbreakingly to the promise land but always find a way to lose at the last minute. Like I said, they are destined to break my sports heart. If only they would do some of that controlling their own destiny.....
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 3:06 PM
The reason I believe in destiny is because all my sports teams become heartbreakingly to the promise land but always find a way to lose at the last minute.

Colts fan?

I think that plays both directions, if for instance you asked a Steelers fan this year..
  Erhithiel of Endor
.......
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 3:15 PM
Perhaps "destiny" is more of what could be, the possibilites, rather then an "absolute" ...

An individual is given a set of variables, and I believe ones' destiny is going to greatly depend on the choices a person makes within his or her life...

As far as which # I am...will go with #3 ... While I believe in the fact that very often our choices have put us exactly where we are, my deeper self knows there is certainly something more at play, in the general scheme of things... :)
  DarthVicomte
Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 3:16 PM
I'm a hardcore #1, but I have an addendum. One controls his own destiny(if I can call it that), but let's not forget our fellow humans, who, by controlling their destinies, can also affect yours.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 3:46 PM
i'm type 3 - i dont doubt that destiny could exist, but i dont think i could ever know what that destiny is, so im not gonna plan my day around it.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 3:55 PM
What I find interesting is the evolution of Obi-Wan, who goes from starry-eyed padawan whom Qui-Gon has to warn about being overly "mindful of the future", to someone who feels its necssary to control the situation himself by controling who knows what.

He definitely became more skeptical as time went on - which again supports my position that Obi-Wan and Yoda differered significantly in their views on the Force, and balance.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 3:59 PM
hmmm - maybe she would have had more luck if the car were booger green? she obviously had some car-ma :^O oh my, that was way too easy!

but what i will plan my day around are the same things that my dualistic understanding mind can wrap itself around, such as cause and effect, the nature of origins and the like. its rationalizing in a way, but it allows me to beleive in fate but not know it, and to assume responsibility for my actions at the same time.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 4:14 PM
the great thing about star wars is, even though we arent neccessarily getting to play god, we the audience get to "know" the destiny of the characters in the story - even though we cant do that for ourselves in real life.... alright, maybe we're getting to play "the Force" LOL.

ah - good point about obiwan and becoming more skeptical. but maybe its more that the Force gave the gift of seeing destiny to the jedi and obiwan in fact being more cautious - due to what he learned from both anakin and the fate of qui gon.with a glimpse of "what could be" the jedi had a very fine balance to maintain, and not cause reaction.
  Erhithiel of Endor
.......
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 4:18 PM
Obi-Wan seemed to have alot of guilt over the loss of Anakin to the dark side...He took this as a personal failure, something Yoda never would have done...Yoda was far more secure in his view of the Force, whereas Obi-Wan was not...
Obi-Wan, I think was more skeptical of himself, then of the Force....One reason why I think he felt he had to finish his "destiny" with Anakin/Darth Vader in ANH...

thats just a thought I had anyway...

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 4:28 PM
obviously had some car-ma!

oh boooo :0)

Obi-Wan, I think was more skeptical of himself, then of the Force....

I agree, I was thinking just the same thing..
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 4:36 PM
Obi-Wan, I think was more skeptical of himself, then of the Force....One reason why I think he felt he had to finish his "destiny" with Anakin/Darth Vader in ANH...

well put. but i would also take into consideration that obiwan preconceived his passing to immortality. even though obiwan was deeply troubled by anakin's turning, and presumably guilty, obiwan didnt neccessarily act on those emotions. he was more of a body guard to the destiny of the chosen one, and by becoming immortal, he could guide luke to see that the "balance" job gets done. the question is, did obiwan realize he was helping luke help anakin fulfill the prophecy. ahh!
  darthwannabe33
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 4:46 PM
Gosh...Luke has too many destinies!

What are we ever to do?
  Erhithiel of Endor
.......
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 4:47 PM
I think Obi-Wan through his communication w/Qui-Gon, and Jedi training felt that the body was transitory, and so he was/is already an infinite being...in body or not ...

As pure spirit, I do think it was "easier" ...for lack of a better word :) ...to work with Luke, in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled...I don't know if Obi-Wan thought further ahead though, focusing on the "here and now" rather then the future...

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 5:37 PM
Gosh...Luke has too many destinies!

You get a real sense of the desperate tug of war between Luke, the New Hope, and Luke, Heir to the Empire when you see all the people in his life vying for his allegiance...
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:04 PM
I don't know if Obi-Wan thought further ahead though, focusing on the "here and now" rather then the future...

we know he at least thought enough to say to vader: "if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." - what was obiwan's notion of being so powerful? i dont think obiwan is the power mongering type, but i would presume that obiwan knows the power will at least lie in guiding luke and hence luke becoming more powerful because of it.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:11 PM
i find it an interesting dichotomy as to how much of the big picture obiwan is seeing. even immortalized, obiwan tells luke on dagobah he must "destroy" vader. was obiwan still holding back on giving luke the bigger truth - that he must destroy vader to free anakin from the shroud of vader and therefore fulfill the prophecy? or does obiwan's vision stop at feeling bad guilty anakin, but still not being able to bring himself to physically murder vader. did obiwan think the prophecy was true and anakin would persevere to restore the balance? i keep teeter tottering between thinking obiwan knows all this, because i know, but as wise as obiwan seems to be - how could he really have known?
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:13 PM
phew - its sort of like pondering infinity.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:17 PM
did obiwan think the prophecy was true and anakin would persevere to restore the balance?

i think he did at one point, but lost his faith in its providence. Yoda and Obi-Wan experienced a role reversal over the years - Yoda at first doubted the Prophecy's validity and interpretation, and Obi-Wan defended it, and Anakin. This is also when Yoda sees the only solution is to destroy the Sith, which clearly failed for both of them.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:18 PM
Later, its Obi-Wan still carrying Yoda's original mission to destroy the Sith, but Yoda has since put his trust in the Force, and Luke's compassion. Whereas Obi-Wan says Luke must destroy Vader, Yoda knows only that he must be confronted - and in fact those two exact words are used respectively from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Yoda believed more in the Destiny of the Chosen One than Obi-Wan did..
  darthgenious7
Chickens only cross the road after coercion.
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:41 PM
Whereas Obi-Wan says Luke must destroy Vader, Yoda knows only that he must be confronted - and in fact those two exact words are used respectively from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Well said. However I am with Vicomte on this one. Destiny is something we control with the choices we make. I am a student of Buddism oddly enough so I do believe in Karma but good choices and good deeds inspire goodness whereas the same is equally true for evil deeds. The only thing you cant control (at least not forever) is others.
  darthgenious7
Chickens only cross the road after coercion.
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:43 PM
One side note Vic is technically your comment would make you a type 3.
  rogue_nine9
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:46 PM
There's a saying: "If If's were Fifths we'd all be Drunk".
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas
  DarthVicomte
Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 6:47 PM
One side note Vic is technically your comment would make you a type 3.

Wha?
  darthgenious7
Chickens only cross the road after coercion.
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 7:09 PM
You believe in Destiny the choice you make that is controlling your destiny opens up the next place destiny takes you. So to say you are type 1 when you believe destiny exists makes you actually a type 3. You believe in both. If you only believe in yourself than you are a type 1.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 7:52 PM
Yoda at first doubted the Prophecy's validity and interpretation, and Obi-Wan defended it

but im not so sure obiwan really ended up doubting the prophecy itself, but maybe he doubted the interpretation of the prophecy after it was questioned.

yoda's doubts caused him (and mace) to react against what the prophecy supposedly said. instead of the chosen one destroying the sith, the jedi took it upon themselves to do the job, possibly (but who can say really) being the catalyst leading to destroy both the jedi and anakin. maybe the chosen one could have met the same destiny, without all the suffering, had the jedi not doubted. but then again, maybe it was the jedi's destiny playing out too. :_|
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 7:59 PM
Obi-Wan says Luke must destroy Vader, Yoda knows only that he must be confronted

ah yes - i always go back to the way they both word this too. but ill still argue till the bantha come home that obiwan didnt neccessarily mean "kill" when he said destroy either. again, another 'certain point of view'. maybe obiwan really trusted that if vader was "destroyed" anakin would be set free (i think so), and was using the same simple language with luke as he did before by saying darth vader killed his father. remember how pissed luke was when obiwan said it was true "from a certain point of view" - luke was on a completely different level of comprehension than obiwan, whih is why obiwan had to put things the way he did.
Rainbow Droideka
Aren't you a little short for an egg?
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:10 PM
I think it's pretty understandable that Obi-Wan had something of a faith crisis after the Prophecy he had basically been living for apparently crashed and burned....

As for my beliefs in the real world, coming at the issue from a physics background (I don't have any degrees in physics or anything, but I understand science pretty well, and I've discussed this with a physics professor), I guess I might technically fit into the #3 category, but to leave it at that would be misleading.

continued...
Rainbow Droideka
Aren't you a little short for an egg?
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:10 PM
We do make decisions that have consequences - to claim otherwise seems to me kind of like a cheap way out of responsibility - but at the same time you could say we have a destiny, in that there is only one future that *will* happen. Thus, we do have a destiny so to speak, but it is determined by the decisions we will make (technically, a combination of deterministic cause and effect with quantom randomness). This only becomes a problem of being out of control of our destiny when you bring in the concept of time travel or prophecy - the knowing of what will come to pass.

continued...
Rainbow Droideka
Aren't you a little short for an egg?
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:10 PM
Whether there could be a "Fate" guiding what happens, I guess that remains unanswered, but it would have to mean someone or something was actually influencing decisions and making things happen (not so different from what we do ourselves, except that it's supposed to be somehow infallible), which doesn't make that much sense to me, and as a skeptic, I don't see any good reason to believe is the case.
Rainbow Droideka
Aren't you a little short for an egg?
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:15 PM
I should add though, that in Star Wars, the Force does provide the possibility of such a Fate mechanism, although whether the Force really acts in this way seems debatable to me.
  anakinfan913
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:22 PM
I think an interesting piece of this destiny-vs-choice issue is the vision Anakin has of Padme dying in childbirth. That vision, and Anakin's fear of it, is what ultimately put him in a state of mind that Palpatine could subvert and use to bring him to the dark side. So, if we're equating the Force with destiny, does that mean it was sent b/c Anakin was destined to become Darth Vader - thus restoring some sort of balance (and BTW, no one ever said 'balance' means that the good guys win) - or was it sent as a warning of what could happen if Anakin continued on his present course, and he failed to do enough investigating to find the true meaning? That vision has fascinated me since I first saw it, and I've been pondering it ever since.
  DarthVicomte
Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:27 PM
You believe in Destiny the choice you make that is controlling your destiny opens up the next place destiny takes you. So to say you are type 1 when you believe destiny exists makes you actually a type 3. You believe in both. If you only believe in yourself than you are a type 1.

Maybe you misunderstood me the firt time, so i will repeat myself.

Wha?
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 21, 2006 8:51 PM
I'm a hardcore #1, but I have an addendum. One controls his own destiny(if I can call it that), but let's not forget our fellow humans, who, by controlling their destinies, can also affect yours.

I think what D. Vicomte is saying here is that by controlling our own destinies, we control others as well. What fates we set for ourselves, may be someone else's who did not choose it.

Still the first type (if we're following my range). There is no "Plan" other than the ones we make for ourselves...Altough for the person who doesn't know who's destiny they're caught up in - maybe it doesnt matter ? :0) I'm still type #3. In fact, I think everyone finds a time when they find out they are just a little 3.
  Raithlin
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 6:14 AM
Heh, I'm between #2 and #3, with a bias toward the 3rd option. :) Some awesome reading here, DM.

Much as in the (my?) real world, Star Wars would seem to have a "predestined" path, with the free will of individuals playing a large part in how it all turns out. A bit like saying "You are destined to die, but how you get there is up to you"...

All my humble opinion, of course...
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 8:09 AM
I've always liked the belief (even if I don't actually believe it) in some sort of chaotic order by which the accidents of today promote the actions of tomorrow, which in turn create more unintended consequences and promote further action. It's wonderful to say we can simply make choices that govern the end of our intended journey, but I think that dismisses the 'happy accidents' we encounter far too lightly.
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 8:09 AM
However, believing solely in 'a plan' negates the power of the humanity and it's ability to control it's environment (the power of positive or negative thinking or perhaps 'global warming'). To say it's both seems a tad disrespectful to either option - you either chose or your don't; you either believe or you don't (Do or do not - there is no try). Would any deity 'understand' when we say - at this point I believed you had a plan, but here I went with mine?
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 8:09 AM
Where Anakin is concerned, I believe (no proof) he was brought forth by the Force as an answer to the growing manipulation of the Force and the Jedi's inability to counter it. As the Force does not control life, neither did it control Anakin. There was a 'hope' Anakin would counter this 'imbalance' but that's all it was 'a hope'. Anakin's destiny was one determined by both his choices and those around him, directly and indirectly.
  Vader of Clubs
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 8:44 AM
I'd say I'm a three. But that's on the basis that if there IS a fate, then what can I do about it? Might as wel live life as if you're in control, yes, plan ahead, but react to the things you can't control. After all there is an order in the universe we can't control, even if it's just the rotation of the planet or the weather which we can't control, as well as the actions of others . . .

I don't think you can doubt the existence of fate in Star Wars, because clearly the story was planned through by the George, who must react kinda as the Force - he planned it. But it's interesting to speculate his thoughts on the matter . . .

But I agree most folks is gonna be a 3.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 8:58 AM
After all there is an order in the universe we can't control, even if it's just the rotation of the planet or the weather which we can't control, as well as the actions of others . . .

Excellent point.

However, believing solely in 'a plan' negates the power of the humanity and it's ability to control it's environment (the power of positive or negative thinking or perhaps 'global warming').

It does make it problematic to believe in a higher plan. However I also think it's human nature to gravitate to that sort of thinking. Its because of these opposing natures that I think most folks are #3...
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 9:08 AM
After all there is an order in the universe we can't control
Is this argument negated if/when are able to do such a thing? Does anyone doubt are tenacity in learning such complex functions or are we prohibited from doing so? Doesn't this sort of thinking simply ensure a 'destiny' we don't necessarily need to acquire? I'm not flaming - it's just that thinking 'we can't' seems to impart an artificial barrier to choice; maybe we are 'meant' to learn how to control just this sort of thing.
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 9:09 AM
are...I mean 'our'...I hate when that happens. (feel free to delete this - thanks)
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 9:20 AM
I think this is likewise an age-old debate regarding such philosophical schools of thought as agnosticism and determinism.
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 9:38 AM
I would consider myself a #3 like most others, except for this comment by DarthVicomte:One controls his own destiny(if I can call it that), but let's not forget our fellow humans, who, by controlling their destinies, can also affect yours.

Even if we spend every second of our lives in closed rooms with no one else around, there will always be moments under which we have no control. None. For that reason, there has to be a plan...

amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Feb 22, 2006 9:43 AM
Whether it's a dark, wet intersection in North Dallas in a brand spankin' new car or a sparking September morning in New York in a towering skyscraper, everyone will be in a situation over which he has no control...and I do believe that "Someone" is at the helm. "Someone" knows how it all ends. "Someone" beyond our complete comprehension.

As they say...it's not about the destination; it's about the journey.
  Kenobi-fan