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Moose Poodoo
date posted: Feb 24, 2006 10:33 AM  |  updated: Feb 24, 2006 7:54 PM
Human by Design, Human by Nature
Recently someone brought up an interesting point about clones, which happens to be something thought of the clone issue since they were introduced in Episode II.

I remember this argument spontaneously appeared: clone troopers were somehow "non-humans". It was a knee-jerk reaction to be sure, and the product of one of those cleverly placed philosophical riddles the George likes to embed in his space opera. It was designed to make us ask, from the very beginning, a few things:

"What is Human?"

and

"When does a human cease to be human?"

and

"To whom do human rights apply?"

I remember these questions so well because I will admit this myself - my first reaction to genetically altered clones with engineered obedience was likewise that they were somehow quite possibly just shy of human status. They were certainly treated this way in the context. They were designed. They were grown. They were hidden. They were bought and sold. They were delivered. These men were shuffled about like so much inventory, albeit expensive inventory, and were designed to counter the threats of mechanical counterparts. And so, like many others, the first conclusion I leapt to was that they were less than men.

And certainly this was enforced by plenty of imagery, not only in Episode II, but throughout the saga. Even when we didn't know Stormtroopers were clones, I remember vividly the various theories that they weren't men at all, that they were in fact robots. Why? Because we never saw their faces. They never once appeared as other humans did in these films. We never saw pain or fear or joy in their eyes.

And really even for those of us that knew better about Stormies being human, we never really cared much about their humanity. We can easily recount when various human characters died in the saga, but scene by scene, I would imagine few of us have an accurate body count for downed Stormtroopers. They were blaster fodder, and that's all. Even when we thought of them as human, we didn't think of them as deserving of the attention we give other humans. They had no names, they had no faces, and so whether we stopped to consider it or not, we relegated them to inferiority.

Then Episode II came along and turned everything upside-down. All of a sudden it mattered what and who these guys were. Aside from the initial denial many experienced (or endured, depending on your point of view) that these soldiers of the Republic would eventually become the foundation of the ranks of Stormtroopers we knew in the Original Trilogy, there was another issue - just what were these guys, exactly?

It started to become evident in the vernacular of the debate. People started referring to "human recruits" vs. clones, and how later many believe the Empire would opt to replace "non-humans" with a "fully human" army.

This of course proved to be only partially true. The cloned army would endure as the heart of the Stormtroopers, and regular recruits only supplemented their forces later. That issue being solved, there remained the troublesome verbiage - that clones were somehow not human.

This is exactly the sort of sneaky moral conundrum Lucas excels at. He did this throughout the Prequels. He would take an issue that we had never questioned, and turned it on its ear. We never questioned that Darth Vader was somehow always evil, and then we saw him as the victim. We never questioned that Boba was heartless, and then we saw him cradle his father's helmet. We never questioned that the Jedi were peaceful, until we saw them go to war. And we never questioned that these white clad anonymous warriors were people, until we saw them as the Jedi saw them.

George Lucas could have easily continued with the more palatable and marketable theme that Stormtroopers were just baddies, deserving of every laser bolt and arrow thrown at them. Instead, he gave us the story of Jango, and his son, and the many other genetic copies of him. Each of these soldiers would undergo accelerated learning, growth, aging, and were ultimately designed to be nearly perfect soldiers, obedient perhaps to a fault. But as they may have been different in design and purpose, they have always been human by nature.

This is why we see Obi-Wan befriending Commander Cody throughout the Clone Wars, and even up until the very end when Order 66 was carried out. They were brothers in arms, comrades, peers, equals. Obi-Wan respected Cody as a human being, and Cody returned this respect.

This is also why these soldiers developed names, at first derivatives of their ID numbers, but later more personal, meaningful names. Names like Jangotat and Darman and Atin. These are human beings, seeking their own birthright to have an identity.

All of this was designed for us to view the clones in the same distressing light the Jedi must have. To Jedi, all life is sacred, and all sentient beings have a right to follow their own path. It was an affront to all these Jedi stood for to place them in command of sentient beings who never had a choice in their lives to be anything but what they were. One by one, the Jedi commanders secretly fostered individuality in their reports, because they knew instinctually these men were real people, and people have choices.

This makes Order 66 all the more poignant, you see. While the Jedi seek to enlighten their cloned allies, the clones are given an order to extinguish their Jedi mentors. This sort of irony is not accidental, folks. Make no mistake that Mr. Lucas is making a statement about the nature of good and evil. Good nurtures an open heart, Evil seeks to exploit it. The Evil forces at work in the Galaxy were conspiring to rob the clones of the nature the Jedi sought to encourage. By the clones becoming victorious, they lost so much more.

For anyone left that believes these clones were somehow "non-humans" or even "sub-human", please note this example, which I gave as a response to another poster's entry.
The primary argument I've seen about clones not being humans is that they were genetically designed to be different in many important ways, namely:
Accelerated growth,
Accelerated aging,
Artificial conception,
And an altered mental state.


In the real world there are natural and artificial counterparts to each of those conditions mentioned:
Accelerated growth: Gigantism
Accelerated aging: Progeria
Artificial conception: Test Tube Babies
Altered mental state: Autism, Retardation, Dissociative Disorders, Sociopathic Disorders...


So you have to ask yourself these questions, by that logic:

If a person has one, two, or all of these conditions, are they less human?

If there were some accident that caused all of these traits, are the victims sub-human?

If there were some sinister agenda by the government to do this to people on purpose, are they not due any rights?

And what if said government doesn't do this to adults, but does this to children, or the unborn - humans no more?


You can design something to behave in certain ways, but that doesn't mean you've changed its basic nature. I may change a car into a truck, or into a tank, but it is still a metal box in its purest form. Humanity reaches further down into our roots than just what we do, or what we've been tinkered with to do.

Otherwise, we are all in danger of some day crossing some nebulous boundary that could deny us our very nature. We could be struck with genetic ailments and/or mutations that render us "non-human" or "sub-human". We could all experience some event that alters our cognitive abilities that would strip us of our status and our rights.

But this is simply not true, is it? In our world there are so many examples that tell us that what makes a human is more than a narrow definition, and at the same time, we can rely on very basic guidelines. Otherwise, Terry Schiavo would have been just so many pounds of flesh, and there would have been no controversy in ending her life. Humanity is more complex than this.

There are certainly broad categories used to describe the different kinds of humans: Mongoloid (originating from the Asian continent), Negroid (from the African continent), Caucasoid (from the European continent), etc etc. Beyond that, it's a very dangerous endeavor to catalog the exact nature of Humanity as we see it, because intrinsic to this process are "standards". And who would sets these standards? And what happens when someone changes these standards? And what happens when someone changes these standards in a fashion that benefits some, and excludes others?

This would seem innocent enough. They would go something like this:

A human thinks a certain way. Not processing information in the manner of the accepted norm is non-human, or sub-human.

A human looks a certain way. Deviation from the standard form is non-human, or sub-human.

A human performs a certain way. Any person that is deficient, or is overly proficient in various human activities is non-human, or sub-human.

A human is never altered. Only naturally evolving humans can be considered human. Anything arrived at artificially is non-human, or sub-human.

A human is born in to a standard family unit. A human without standard parentage is non-human, or sub-human.


...but such standards have been twisted before and are therefore insidious. Where in our history have these narrow definitions been applied? I think you know the answer to that, and I won't bore you with talk of Reichs and eugenics.

But I will point out another conflict in human history that centered on this very question - the nature of humanity. From 1861 to 1865 my country tore itself asunder in the fight to assert who had the right to own another human. Not only a constitutional struggle over states rights, this was more importantly a struggle for individual human rights. The Civil War of the United States brought our nation to the brink of dissolution if for no other reason that the idea that this question is not always so easy to answer, and because of this difficulty in quantification it was determined that the nature of humanity runs deeper than mere definitions.

Part of the Confederacy's argument went something like this:

"These people, while certainly appearing human, are in fact sub-human. As a greater society, the South has taken these poor souls in, given them a home and a purpose, and to release them would be inhumane. Proof?

They do not think like us.

They do not look like us.

There can't perform like us.

They have been bred for hundreds of years to be slaves, to have strong backs, to have empty minds, to be subservient to us.

They have never had parents, or a family.

Their only purpose is to serve us. They were designed to be property. They have been bought and sold.

Therefore, they are not human, and human rights do not apply."


What was wrong with those points - the standards, the agenda, or something deeper? Was it that humanity was being defined by Caucasoids that excluded all others? The problem with these standards is that someone will always be there to twist them. But more importantly, they simply do not address the reality of the human condition.

I'm not suggesting that Moglop who lives as a sentient crystaline structure at the bottom of a sea of liquid hydrogen 827 light years from here is Human, nor could the case be made that he (she, it) is.

What I am suggesting, however, is it takes a great deal more than simple genetic tweaking to strip us of our humanity. And let's be clear here - one day we will cross that line. We will "manufacture" humans with genetic enhancements, try as we might to stem the tide. It will be unfortunate that we feel the need to usurp the power of nature, but these moral questions have never stopped us before.

This is why its important to view humanity past the simple realm of standards, because this could even happen in our lifetime.

I find it ironic, however, that if we were discussing Cows, there wouldn't be as many questions. If scientists made some alterations to a Cow's color, or altered its mental capabilities, or even managed to clone that cow in a laboratory without parents, is there any doubt that it would still be referred to as a cow, perceived as a cow? You can imagine the headlines in scientific journals. They would say "Scientists Continue Genetic Research on Cow", not "Scientists Study Sub-Cow" or "Scientists grapple with what to name non-Cow species."

And what makes Cows different than Humans? Simple - the question of status. The question of human rights. The question of deserving the same things that "real" humans get without a second thought. As far as Cows go, you can change one, and you have not changed the nature of the world around it. As far as humans go, if you change a group of humans into something other than this, genetically arrived at or otherwise, you have likewise changed the rules that surround them. A Cow will always be treated like a Cow, but a "semi-human" will be treated very differently indeed. Perhaps more like the Cow in the long run.

Making genetic alterations is not the domain of scientists only. Nature does it all the time. Ten's of thousands of years ago, when there was still a land bridge that connected Siberia and North America, ancient Asians migrated from colder, barren lands to the fertile promise of America's primordial forests and open plains. These Asians, in genetic terms "Mongoloid" humans, settled across the new continent and made a life. In time, subtle changes made themselves evident in successive generations, manifesting in different ways, in different areas. To the far north, Eskimos became a distinctive people and culture. Further south, Native Americans flourished in a variety of great nations. Each looked slightly different; each had changed subtly in form and function. They were no longer Asian, although perhaps still classified as Mongoloid.

But since they had been tweaked by nature with subtle permutations, were they then no longer Human? Would the peoples of Korea, China, and Japan look at them as "sub-human" or "non-human"? I doubt that in nearly every case. But there is one people that did jump to this conclusion, again with amazing regularity - the Caucasoids. The European peoples that later flooded the Americas often crushed the Native American societies under foot because they were seen as "savages". Soon after the war to establish human rights for African slaves was fought, a campaign was undertaken to exterminate these indignious peoples to make way for "Manifest Destiny", the doctrine that said the US should spread from Sea to shining Sea.

Once again, standards were applied. They went something like this:

"These people stand in the way of our great society. They attack our settlers who rightfully claim this land. They do not deserve this great country, nor any rights due to an upstanding human being. Why?

They do not think like us.

They do not look like us.

There can't perform like us.

They live like savages.

They do not have our kind of family or morals.

More importantly, they are in the way. Their lands have been bought and sold. They may not be property, but where they live is.

Therefore, they are not human, and human rights do not apply."


Funny how this keeps happening. In one case, you've got people viewed as property, because they benefit the society they live in. In another case, you've got people viewed as animals that have to be culled, because they are in the way, something that would be repeated 80 years later in Europe. History has a nasty habit of showing us patterns of disturbing regularity.

But let's take a look at this logic, then. If humans are to be held to a certain standard, a "genetically unaltered" standard, a "pure" standard, then who were the first humans? Wouldn't we return then to the source? Would this be the "Master Race" then, the template for all humanity? And if so, what do we do with the knowledge that archeology and paleontology is finding converging evidence that Africa was the cradle of humanity?

Are non-Africans, then, by virtue of their genetic alterations throughout time, non-human? Sub-human?

Before you try to answer that, let me be the first to alleviate the pressure of such a monstrous question. The answer is simple. We're all human.

Well...ok you are. I'm a moose

Anyway, if you think differently, you're still human. If you look differently, you're still human. If you perform differently, you're still human. If you were born differently, you're still human. And therefore, you are afforded those same lofty Jeffersonian gifts of humanity, those "inalienable rights" of liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And THAT, ladies and gents, is the very point I'd like to return to now. That is why Mr. Lucas had us go through this mental exercise. Let's forget the fact that George Lucas viewed these clones as human. Let's forget that he has licensed authors and artists to present the very human qualities of these clones. Let's forget that they were inserted into the storyline for this very reason. Let's forget that we're even talking about fictional creations, because the question itself is more important that those considerations.

Let's simply answer this question: Are these clones human? Yes. What else would they be?

DM out

Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 10:54 AM
Thank you, comrade.

I hope that makes it clear why I get very unreasonable and not at all my loveable self when I hear talk of "not human". It's the thin end of the wedge of thinking that ends in Auschwitz or Rwanda or Srebrenica.
janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:01 AM
Good god man, do you actually work for a living? If I mail as lenghilty and as regularly on this blog as you do, will it pay my mortgage?

Brilliant points, all of them. Of course clones are human - that's where the moral boundaries come into play as we forge ahead in this age of science. And why we need to be so very careful (although living in the UK at this time I fear for every freedom of choice we have earned - government needs a kick up the arse. They'd better shape up or #### out)

janlomona
Smugglers Rants
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:01 AM
This is too deep for me. It's Friday night, I have a pizza in the oven, I'm wearing my dressing gown over my clothes becaue it's cold and Phoenix Nights is on my DVD, and that says more about the human conditiojn than any show since Spaced.
Ask Karen Traviss, she'll know.
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:06 AM
You know how we have charachter limits on comments? It might be time to institute that on blog entries. Man, my eyes hurt.:)

I loved all your points and you are right, classifying humans or life in general is a very, very sticky situation.

KT, we all love the clones, especially your creations. How can you not look at Darmon or Atin as nothing but human?
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:15 AM
You know how we have charachter limits on comments? It might be time to institute that on blog entries.

Where's the love man? :0)
  T'tocs Deloran
T'tocs Asylum
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:28 AM
And really even for those of us that knew better about Stormies being human, we never really cared much about their humanity.


Nor did they, or they would have learned to shoot more accurately. ;)

Interesting blog. This is of course why I currently oppose cloning. Many of the reasons given for doing so are based on money and resources, rather than on creating life because life is a good thing to create.
  luuke.skywalker
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:30 AM
My first thought after reading this was "Karen Traviss will have something to say." I love it when I'm right. It doesn't happen very often.
  Lord Baktlar
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:31 AM
I was reading another blog entry where clones were regarded as "obviously" sub-humans because their DNA had been tweaked. Establishing subjective criteria like "they think, act, live differently" is a very dangerous way to define what is human. The fact that we can think creatively and be able to avoid being the slaves of our instincts give us the ability to be very different from everyone else. That doesn't, by all means, establish different species. Clones would only become another species if the tampering became so severe that, while capable of fertilizing some female clone, they were unable to fertilize a human. That, as far as I know, isn't the case. (continues)
  Darth Rex0
So be it....
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:32 AM
Where's the love man? :0)

You know me well enough to know its there. I've run out of good adjectives for your stuff, so now I just stick to sarcasm. It can be a form of flattery you know.:)
  Lord Baktlar
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:36 AM
(continued) And even if it were the case, there isn't logical basis to define them as inferior. They excelled at fighting, same as some are good in math and others may be good cooks. Who are we to establish a hierarchy between those without letting our personal values and prejudices make that ranking dangerously partial? So, yes, the clones are very human, even if they're treated as merchandise by their creators and many others.
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:37 AM
If you ##### us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
Williams Shakespeare

While at the Lincoln museum in Springfield, IL last weekend, I read a comment of his to a preacher who claimed that slavery was sanctioned by God. Lincoln's response to the preacher was that he was confusing self-interest with his beliefs.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:40 AM
You know me well enough to know its there. I've run out of good adjectives for your stuff, so now I just stick to sarcasm. It can be a form of flattery you know

LOL :0) thank you.
Bekkara
The Wroshyr Tree
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:42 AM
This post brings to mind a few related questions (some of which I believe you touched on Moose and Karen has discussed in her blog) -- what makes humans so special anyway? Why are we so convinced we're the dominant species? More important, what happens if/when we realize we aren't the only sentient species in the universe?

Forgive the cross-universe quoting, but I can just hear Azetbur in Star Trek VI: "'Inalienable'. 'Human' rights. The very phrase is racist."
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:43 AM
So, yes, the clones are very human, even if they're treated as merchandise by their creators and many others.

Absolutely - how they are perceived, and how they were created is immaterial to the nature they already embody.
ewanandhaydenfan5
I Have You Now!
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:06 PM
Wow. My head...is ....exploding! :D

I read somewhere that what defines being human is the ability to reason. But didn't at least some of the clones have the ability to reason and think outside the box, as in their refusal to obey Order 66? (I'm not dissing the clones here; my knowledge of the clones and the EU clones is limited).
(continued)...
ewanandhaydenfan5
I Have You Now!
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:06 PM
...I was recently at the Museum of Science & Industry in Chicago, in the Genetics section (if any of you have ever been there, it's the area where they have the little chicks hatching....so cute!). There's a display on genetic engineering with pictures of babies and a caption of a genetic scenario next to each picture. Each scenario asks if you'd want to alter the genetics of the child if you knew that one of them would very likely develop depression, if one of them would be born with a condition that would ensure death by age 5, if you and your mate were unusually short and you could give your child a chance at an average height, or if you just wanted to give your child the best chance in life. It's impossible to make those decisions.
ewanandhaydenfan5
I Have You Now!
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:07 PM
(continued)
ewanandhaydenfan5
I Have You Now!
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:07 PM
...woops, sorry about that blank post. Continued...
Personally, I would not tamper with genetics in the last 2 cases, but in the short term, who wouldn't say, yes, save my child who would otherwise die by age 5 or who could develop debilitating depression (even though there's medication for depression, it doesn't always work). But where would this genetic tampering lead in the long term? Who decides the moral limits?

Very profound blog, DM!
  darthwannabe33
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:08 PM
"Lincoln's response to the preacher was that he was confusing self-interest with his beliefs."

Lincoln is right. What bugs me is I know many people who do that same thing. Since we are human, we're imperfect, and so I guess it is easy to let those sort of thoughts to infiltrate our minds. Therefore we need to think about "...whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable..." (From Phillipians 4:8) and not things that will ruin our minds.
  ThrawnRocks1
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:20 PM
Moose, I was in rapture. At last, a good 'essay' that is worthy of reading. Sometimes people go overboard in their essay-blogs.
But you don't know anyone who does that, right? :)

Forgive the cross-universe quoting, but I can just hear Azetbur in Star Trek VI: "'Inalienable'. 'Human' rights. The very phrase is racist."

I know. I had to work around that very issue the other day :). I was writing a spur-of-the-moment essay on Thrawn (I had to after reading Outbound Flight!!!) and in referring to him as "human" (he actually had a heart!) I kept hearing that quote in my head...so I avioded using that particular wording...
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:25 PM
Wow. I think I'll have to re-read this one on a better night's sleep than I had last night.

But...absolutely. Clones are human. I saw the word "evolve" up there somewhere as an indicator of humanity. Clones start with what they are given and then they evolve as naturally as they are able, same as any other human would.

Plus, they have opposable thumbs...very key to humanity B-)
  Lord Baktlar
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:25 PM
Genetically tampered babies would still be humans. There are already in our days laws and principles that could guide us to establish moral and legal limits in the future. I don't see much problem with tampering with the DNA to prevent a baby from dying too soon, having depression or suffering from one of many genetically-induced disorders. How can one say it's immoral to make changes in the genetic code and offer a baby a much more promising life? (continues)
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:28 PM
OK...I know I was trying (foolishly!) to be funny with the "opposable thumbs" comment. but there is actual merit to it. From a strictly animal classification perspective, isn't the presence of opposable thumbs part of what makes us human? If you let a Jedi chop off a previously proven human's hand somewhere along the way, as they are prone to do, does that make the human less...human?

...rambling...I know...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:30 PM
This is of course why I currently oppose cloning. Many of the reasons given for doing so are based on money and resources, rather than on creating life because life is a good thing to create.

I think that is a very truthful statement that should be remembered as we approach that ideological horizon. I tend to agree, with this caveat:

We can't throw the babies out with the bathwater. Though cloning may some day be feared as an abomination, the products of cloning can not be viewed as such. Some day we may be asked to make that distinction, and I wonder if everyone will be able to. They will have to be viewed as fully human, and that's really why cloning is so controversial anyway.
  Lord Baktlar
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 12:35 PM
(continued) The problem lies on the issue of parents deciding what their kid should be like. Can't this tampering lead to horrible side-effects? Our knowledge is very limited on that area, so until we can have a system that offers 100% safeguards against side-effects, tampering should only be seen as ultima ratio, to prevent disorders, like early death. Also, I doubt we can afford the power to control evolution and having "customized" children is exactly that. It's natural and right that we desire our children to live well, and try to treat any illnesses. But one thing is to treat disorders, the other is to try and take control of evolution. The latter is too much power for such flawed beings like we are.
  T'tocs Deloran
T'tocs Asylum
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 1:10 PM
Our knowledge is very limited on that area, so until we can have a system that offers 100% safeguards against side-effects...


Side-effects are not limited to the physical. And there is no way we can ever fully predict the social, emotional, spiritual, and intellectual side-effects cloning and/or genetic tampering may create for individuals and society in general.

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 1:12 PM
Somehow I can picture this exact debate going on in the Senate as they considered the Military Creation Act, and the morality of using clones as an army...
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 2:03 PM
Somehow I can picture this exact debate going on in the Senate as they considered the Military Creation Act....

Well, not exactly, it would have been more like this:
Wookie Delegation: Rrrworoorrkkk roooowrkrkkkkooooo! wrrk!
Jawa Delegation: Ootini!
ET Delegation: ET phone hoooooome! ET! ET! EEEETTTTTT!
Earth Delegation: (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!) Huh, what? I need a hotdog.

Just kidding!
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 2:33 PM
ha! until the Gungan delegation stood up and said:

"Dellow Felegates..."
  ywingempress
Shroud of the Dark Side
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 7:39 PM
Great entry, probably the best I've read on sw.com. :) You said everything I wanted to after reading that other entry, yet I could never have said it so well. I copied this to my computer so I never lose it. *respect*
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 8:01 PM
Thank you very much :0) I'm glad you got something out of it. I think it's an important question the saga asks us, and the answer is an important message. To not see it is to miss some of the richness of Star Wars, among other things..

DM out
  natesmama
The Matriarch Says...
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 8:20 PM
Though cloning may some day be feared as an abomination, the products of cloning can not be viewed as such. Some day we may be asked to make that distinction, and I wonder if everyone will be able to.

Some people can't even view "normal" people without adding addendums and subtitles. Such is the black heart of prejudice. There is no wondering in my mind. There will be people unable to distinguish between the two, and some who use it as an excuse to hate. Such is human nature and Lucas does a good job of making that part of our twisted psyche plain in his films also.
Michelle1968
M68- Star Wars Kid at Heart
date Posted: Feb 24, 2006 11:07 PM
I read somewhere that the earlier clones did not have the ability to strategize, that they could only take orders. The clones were considered just another number until more and more the clones began to die in battle. Their loyalty to the republic and to the Jedi was so strong that the 2nd and 3rd generations were given names by the Jedi and began to feel like actual comrades. I've just recently begun reading some of the EU that's available which has enlightened me so much on a variety of subjects. This was one of them in fact. I loved reading this blog Moose. Thank you!
  Blue leader46
The CIS Shadowfeed Department
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 2:18 AM
As a species, clones were indisputeably human. Not pure human, but human nonetheless. However, they weren't treated like humans by the Jedi and others. They were treated in the same way that the CIS treated it's droids: disposable minions.
  Blue leader46
The CIS Shadowfeed Department
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 2:27 AM
BTW, excellent blog Dark Moose. You have actually convinced me that clones derserve to be treated like humans. And that is something nobody has ever done before.
Oh, and you forgot another reason as to why some consider clones to be semi-human: they weren't birthed in the normal way. They were born from vats.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 2:36 AM
Thank you Blue leader 46- its high praise for someone to say they like your blog, but even higher when someone says they were convinced of something by it.

I appreciate the interesting debate you fostered and your points as well. If only all discussions on this site could be done with such decorum :0)

DM out
  Vader of Clubs
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 7:11 AM
I'm mostly scared that one day the Moose(pluralified however that be done) will realise that humans are their inferiors and decide to wipe us out . . .
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 8:29 AM
Meese. I'ts MEESE! Guards, take him away!
Michelle1968
M68- Star Wars Kid at Heart
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 10:51 AM
And then there's Boba Fett.... a clone but unaltered was he.
  gahmah80
Gahmah's Lair of Trauma (Blog Closed Due to Inability to Renew Hyperspace Account)
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 11:18 AM
Good point there, Moose. All humans are different, and we are treated equally, so this should apply to clones and all species. Even though meese are considered wild animals, you could be treated as human, since you are one of the only meese I know of that is capable of knowing our language and typing (I bet it is pretty hard for them since they don't have fingers).

As for genetic alterations, I think there are some that the Kaminoans don't really care about, such as not looking exactly like Jango, different skin color, different eye color, different voices (Republic Commando seems to suggest that), different hair color, etc.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 1:20 PM
since you are one of the only meese I know of that is capable of knowing our language and typing (I bet it is pretty hard for them since they don't have fingers).

it's a little problematic but I seem to manage :0)

I think there are some that the Kaminoans don't really care about, such as not looking exactly like Jango, different skin color, different eye color, different voices.

I think they can only control uniformity so much, but once they are out in the world, all bets are off. In the end, these beings are individual organic creatures, albeit extremely similar to one another. They develop along close but separate paths.
  Darth Wolf 42
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 2:21 PM
This is the best blog ever! It was very interesting to read. Moose, I applaud you!
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Feb 25, 2006 4:04 PM
Glad you liked :0) My blogs seem to be getting longer and longer so I really appreciate when people take the time to read them.

DM out
  Jedi Outcast: Hello.
date Posted: Feb 26, 2006 11:49 AM
Your blogs are always worth reading DM, no matter how long they are. I always come away with something new when reading them!

Great job! A very, very interesting blog.
  jedimastergoalie
date Posted: Feb 27, 2006 1:34 PM
Best blog, I've ever read DM.
I live in Canada but I took an American History course in this year, in high school, yeah thats right, I'm in my 3rd year of high school. Anyways, we just did the slavery debate, as we were starting to study the Civil War, and you points are exactly right about the Confederacy's arguments. I see you've done you're research, *trys to think of a witty quote from SW that fits that statement*.
Finally someone has summed up the clones being human, I've been trying to convince my friends for some time now, and cleared up any "misconceptions", sorry I had to, Blue leader46.
  atskooc
date Posted: Feb 28, 2006 7:12 AM
i ask many of these same questions when i'm teaching frankenstein. many times the question comes up about whether or not the creation has a soul. is this what makes us human? if so, do clones have a soul?