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Moose Poodoo
date posted: Jun 25, 2006 1:50 PM  |  updated: Jun 26, 2006 6:19 AM
"More powerful than you can possibly imagine..."
In James Luceno's Labyrinth of Evil, we see the nascent understanding of Yoda's communion with Qui-Gon, however unknowing Yoda might be of the ability at this point.

Yoda's meditations allowed him to tap into the "current of the Force", and in doing so he had the impression he could hear Qui-Gon clearly across the gulf of death. And Qui-Gon, as disbelieving as Yoda might have been, was telling Yoda the secrets of timeless power, forged within the Force itself.

From the Labyrinth of Evil:

Master Yoda, he might say, We still have much to learn. The Force remains a code only partially deciphered. But another key has been found. We will become stronger than we have ever been...

Years hence Obi-Wan would echo his old master's beliefs from beyond. As he sacrificed himself for a new era, telling Darth Vader, Anakin Skywalker, his lost friend and padawan:

"You can't win.... If you strike me down, I shall become more
powerful than you can possibly imagine."


And surely the events that played out from then until the redemption of Anakin in Return of the Jedi do show the Jedi as the stronger, more lasting legacy for the galaxy.

But were they right? What do these portents really mean for themselves, for the Galaxy - "More powerful than you can possibly imagine...", "Stonger than we have ever been..."

Was Qui-Gon speaking of the Jedi's ability to cheat death, the same empty promise Palpatine had offered Anakin? Was Obi-Wan referring to his influence over events leading up to Anakin's redemption? What of Yoda's immense powers? Or Anakin's - what became of them in the ether of the Force?

One line from Empire Strikes Back sets these assertions of untapped power in a peculiar perspective. As Luke is boarding his ship to rescue his friends on Bespin, Obi-Wan and Yoda attempt to warn him off.

Obi-Wan, his ghostly hands up in protest and warning, begs of Luke, "Patience..."

Luke regards Obi-Wan in askance: "And sacrifice Han and Leia?"

"If you honor what they fight for...yes!," Yoda adds to the seriousness of the matter.

Luke's conflict plays across his face, and Obi-Wan offers his final attempt to sway Luke's impetuous mind on the matter, knowing that he may well be witnessing the same downfall as Anakin:

"If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere."

"I understand..."

All Obi-Wan can do now is watch forlornly as Luke climbs into his ship, resolute to ignore their pleas and to meet his destiny. He adds one last warning, surely thinking only of their failure with Anakin:

"Luke, don't give in to hate -- that leads to the dark side."

Where, at this crucial juncture, was the power of the Jedi from beyond? Or is that what those statements even meant? It certainly seems Obi-Wan is completley powerless at this most important moment, the moment that Luke could very well follow his father's path from fear, to anger, to hatred, to suffering...in fact he followed nearly each and every step to the Dark Side his father had taken. Obi-Wan had no vision of the future to calm his spirit, and no influence on the living to shape the outcome.

Later, in Return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan all but gives up when Luke says he can't do what is asked of him.

"I can't kill my own father."

Obi-Wan's spirit sags, as if ghosts could tire of the living world, "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

At that moment, it meant to Obi-Wan that he had wasted his life, and his death. However incorrect he was about Vader having to die at Luke's hands, there seemed to be no power to draw upon from the Force at this moment. The Jedi were in fact weakening to their last single glimmer.

Of course the events reversed themselves. With Obi-Wan's and Yoda's counsel, Luke overcame his fears and learned the truth was more powerful as seen through the lense of compassion, not vengence.

The Jedi did triumph in the end, but were they more powerful by the discovery of Qui-Gon's mastery of projection beyond death? What of Obi-Wan's futility? For those in need, what became of Yoda's infinite wisdom? What became of Anakin's warnings of the Dark Side? Were they put to use effectively as counsel from beyond?

Or did they help to tip, and later maintain, the Balance in a more meaningful way?

Was Qui-Gon right, or wrong?

DM out

  gahmah80
Gahmah's Lair of Trauma (Blog Closed Due to Inability to Renew Hyperspace Account)
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 2:04 PM
You bet, Qui-Gon was right. Obi-Wan's beliefs came from him. And Luke's beliefs came from both Obi-Wan and Vader.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 2:09 PM
You bet, Qui-Gon was right. Obi-Wan's beliefs came from him. And Luke's beliefs came from both Obi-Wan and Vader.

That's an astute and interesting statement - so you feel it was the power of their beliefs that prevailed?
  gahmah80
Gahmah's Lair of Trauma (Blog Closed Due to Inability to Renew Hyperspace Account)
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 2:49 PM
Yes, like they sometimes say, "you do what you believe is right".
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 2:56 PM
That's exactly what I was wondering - and it sort of fits into Lucas' method of replacing one notion with a deeper one. We often see terms like "power" and think it has to do with brute force, or control.

What I had often thought Obi-Wan meant when he said this to Vader was that the truth of conviction, the purity of spirit and the depth of belief would serve him and the Jedi into the afterlife - that his convictions would become Luke's, no matter what.

And if that's the point, it was the beliefs of Yoda and Obi-Wan that lived on, though evolved into Luke's new vision of the Jedi Order.
  gahmah80
Gahmah's Lair of Trauma (Blog Closed Due to Inability to Renew Hyperspace Account)
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:04 PM
What I'm saying is don't get all your beliefs from books or mentors-of-all-mentors.

You get your beliefs from your mentor and yourself, not the commonly known know-all-the-basics high council.
  gahmah80
Gahmah's Lair of Trauma (Blog Closed Due to Inability to Renew Hyperspace Account)
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:06 PM
With the exception of Yoda of course, since the rest of the council is mostly ignorant.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:12 PM
I think Yoda and even Obi-Wan's beliefs had altered greatly from the ideas the Council used to espouse. Yoda seemed at some points to employ wisdom that he had learned after the fall of the Republic with Luke - Yoda had definitely learned from the mistakes and failures of the Jedi, and even himself. I believe Yoda knew what Obi-Wan perhaps wasn't so clear on - that you couldn't defeat the Sith from without with agression, you had to defeat them from within with compassion.

Regardless I think both Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that it was the failure of the Jedi to have become complacent and prideful, and so their own views departed from that - those are the views they gave Luke, the one's he carried forward to the new Jedi.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:18 PM
But I have to wonder then, what was it about Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's message that made these powers unique from the living? Was it that they were willing to die for them? Or that they could continue in the path of the Force long after they lived, and therefore mentor others to carry it forward to future generations?

And was it Qui-Gon's specific beliefs in the living Force that shaped these new tenets? Notice Yoda's admonishment of Luke mirros Qui-Gon's to Obi-Wan in Episode I :

"Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing!"



The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:19 PM
That sounds a lot like Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan:

QUI-GON : "Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration
here and now where it belongs."
OBI-WAN : "Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future..."
QUI-GON : ".....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the
living Force, my young Padawan."


And notice its also a contradiction of Yoda's later statement to Luke. It makes you wonder how much Yoda learned from Qui-Gon, and if this is the secret of their lasting power...
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:22 PM
Well the immortality practice certainly made the old dudes more portable - pocket gurus they became... for a little while. In the post OT EU, all the Force ghosts fade out never to return to help Luke (or Leia) along. I can't say I like that aspect of the EU much.

I don't think there is a right or wrong to what Qui Gon did, and to me *that* is the point, or at least one significant point. I alwasy go back to Obi Wans struggle with Anakin, and how conflicted he was in confronting him. His response to Luke saying "I can't kill my own father" seems like Obi Wan is still at a certain degree of conflict still. At the same time, the masters offer Luke many contradictions - which forces Luke to learn to use his intuition - trust himself.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:27 PM
... trust himself to choose between right and wrong, to be open to the possibility that there isn't neccessarily a right or wrong choice sometimes, and have the mindset to act upon his decisions and adapt to the consequences.

When Luke set off to Bespin, I think Yoda and Obi Wan were making sure if he did go, he went for the right reasons, with the right approach - at the same time they were skeptical of his readiness. I like to think they realized it wasn't neccessarily right or wrong for Luke to go, but depended on the conditions.

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:29 PM
Well the immortality practice certainly made the old dudes more portable - pocket gurus they became..

Great analogy, and it can also be said that Obi-Wan may have helped to save Luke's life on Hoth by not letting him give up until Han got to him.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:53 PM
When Luke set off to Bespin, I think Yoda and Obi Wan were making sure if he did go, he went for the right reasons, with the right approach - at the same time they were skeptical of his readiness. I like to think they realized it wasn't neccessarily right or wrong for Luke to go, but depended on the conditions.

Or in other words, they left it up to the Force - whatever the will of the Force would be, that would lead Luke to his destiny. An in that sense, maybe he had to find out Vader was his father for Luke to help Anakin fulfill the prophecy.
  Tu®gon
Gondolin
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 3:57 PM
You know, that's really interesting, thinking about Obi-Wan's reaction to Yoda telling him to confront Anakin in ROTS.

OBI-WAN
Send me to kill the Emperor.
I will not kill Anakin.

YODA
To fight this Lord Sidious,
strong enough, you are not.

OBI-WAN
He is like my brother...
I cannot do it.


The likeness of Obi-Wan's reaction to that of Luke's:

"I can't kill my father."

However, Yoda sends Obi-Wan regardless of his conflict. Obi-Wan on the other hand gives up, saying the emperor's won. When Luke finally faces Vader it is after Yoda has told him to confront him (which, of course, is not synonymous with kill)

Meh, I'm too tired to know where I'm going with this, sorry.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:06 PM
Meh, I'm too tired to know where I'm going with this, sorry.

I think one of the places that goes is that both Obi-Wan and Yoda learned different things from their failures and mistakes. Ultimately, it was Yoda's understanding that won out, but Luke did profit from both points of view.

I explored that a little in Born of Two Masters - and I think its these fundamental shifts in Jedi philosophy, brought on by their hard lessons in life, that do shape the new Jedi Order..and perhaps it does make them more powerful than they have ever been.

Maybe that's exactly it. How powerful would we all be if we could learn from the mentors of our past?
  zboa10
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:19 PM
i think that obi wan and yoda gave up after a while. you know they resorted to betraying the jedi way to destroy the dark side. even if luke did beat vader himself how would he stop the emperor from getting a new apprentice.its weird because near the end they almost seemed like the sith. but if you look at they had to fight aggresivly to beat them. if the strongest jedi couldnt beat the emperor. how would like beat vader without anger or passion or using feelings. cont
DJ Maul: Got Feet?
DJ Maul's Dancin' Cantina Party
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:23 PM
wow, its a crazy, crazy mixed up world...

I think the question isnt whether the "Force Ghosts" were "more POWERFUL" than they were when alive (by all accounts they were NOT as they couldnt fight battles or even use The Force on others) but whether just BEING "one with The Force" was "powerful" enough.

It did allow Obi Wan to continue training and influencing Luke after his "death" ("let go, Luke!", "You will go to the Dagobah system" etc.") so in a way he did help in the outcome of the downfall of The Sith, just not in a direct way.

Yoda & Ben's ghosts obviously couldnt attack Vader or Palpatine directly, otherwise they would have...however, who knows how they may have been directing The Force BEHIND the scenes...?



  zboa10
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:25 PM
probably if any of us have experienced the dark sid in a way. that way is adrenaline. when your scared excited mad any extreme feeling you get stronger faster ect. ect. why shouldnt they have said that. yoda was the strongest in the light side of the force during order 66 and he was weakened because he gained power from the force but after there was barely any living force left ( the jedi) they had to resort to the dark side then the light again to survive. i might be a little off because i havnt watched the original trilogy as much as the first three. im better at the prequels
DJ Maul: Got Feet?
DJ Maul's Dancin' Cantina Party
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:28 PM
Maybe thats IT...maybe it was the combination of their being able to still communicate with Luke despite being "dead" and their being able to influence The Force from the INSIDE as well that made the difference; that made them "more powerful than ever" ...Qui Gon influenced Yoda from beyond the grave, who taught Obi Wan how, who in turn influenced Luke from beyond as well...I suppose that ability to continue to teach someone after death IS a pretty powerful thing...sorry, Im rambling...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:37 PM
Maybe thats IT...maybe it was the combination of their being able to still communicate with Luke despite being "dead" and their being able to influence The Force from the INSIDE as well that made the difference; that made them "more powerful than ever" ...

The first point I definitely agree with, the second I agree with the twist that i don't think they influenced the Force from within, but more that they were part of the Force, so its will flowed more freely through them.

No longer could they be mired by the Dark Side, hiding elements of reality from them and clouding their vision - they could see from within the Force, and be better tools of it because of this.
  jkelly
There Is No Conflict
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:42 PM
I've recently been toying with the idea that when we examine Qui-Gon's devotion to the Living Force, we should really be looking inward (or into Qui-Gon) first. If you're living in the moment, you must first be in control of yourself. I blogged on the issue of the "chosen one" and the Council missing the boat because they were not attuned to the living force. Sort of like "charity begins at home."

I think your question centers on the effects of the power, and not necessarily the power itself.

  jkelly
There Is No Conflict
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:43 PM
(cont.)

What I'd suggest here is that when examining whether one is more powerful, we need to start by looking at the person and not the effects of the power. Raw power, e.g., nuclear fission, is one thing. What you do with it is another. So, Qui-Gon learns of, and teaches, this power source. Who's to say the blue ghost Jedi really know what they're doing with it?

More powerful? Yes (or let's assume so). Able to use the power? Maybe not.
DJ Maul: Got Feet?
DJ Maul's Dancin' Cantina Party
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 4:44 PM
One could argue the point that them BEING a part of The Force and still yet retaining their individuality (The Midi-chlorian thing always reminded me of a group collective type deal) means that they must have had SOME amount of influence ON The Force as well, but I suppose thats just spliting hairs...
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 5:13 PM
That's an interesting point - in some small way, by retaining their individuality, they add to the volition of the Force itself with their own hopes.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 5:14 PM
they left it up to the Force - whatever the will of the Force would be

Yes, and everything you said about how Luke needed to discover Vader and his destiny (which Yoda nor Obi Wan could see: "always in motion is the future") - but I think Obi Wan still had some residual attachments to his own struggle with Anakin. For the record - "they left it up to the Force" isn't to imply that they gave up responsibility or were being lazy. It was a conscious act of non-action ;)

I was always curious as to whether or not QG "learned" the immortality practice after his death, or perfected it then. Also - it's not the same as the Sith cheating death. Different intentions, and one is for physical life, the other is for consciousness.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 5:25 PM
Really the only reason the Jedi would want to retain consciousness or individuality is to remain connected with someone living who can use that connection. The "power" isn't as if they can make their amps go up to 11 - it's an unconventional way to embody power. They remain connected in order to allow the living an advantage - but it only works where the path leads to good (in the Greater Force capacity). I don't think a Sith could be capable of it for that reason - so instead, they have this "unnatural" voodoo thing that they do (which only one has acheived anyway - was it a lie?)
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 5:40 PM
Also - it's not the same as the Sith cheating death. Different intentions, and one is for physical life, the other is for consciousness.

An excellent point. And on the flipside, Yoda and Obi-Wan could likewise use the Force from the inside for the broadening of consciousness, which in turn would have to have better consequences for the living anyway. They could truly understand what Yoda alluded to, that they were more than crude matter, and that their existance beyond that had a greater impact. If the living could better understand that, they would be better off for it.

It has some merit for those of us without the benefit of a "Force," really.
jkthunder
Seven Pieces
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 6:34 PM
Ooh - Like a chain reaction from Jedi ghosts in the realm of the Force to the living Jedi, which transfers out to the "good" in the galaxy the living Jedi are empowered to uphold. Alas, the "powerless", with the narrow insights they may have, all too often cannot understand "power" in this way - they fear it and seperate themselves from it, take offense even - therefore allowing the dark side to ever creep itself in. And the cycle continues... oop. I'm meshing this entry with another one (which goes well here I think) and a little bit of real life. SW is good like that. :^O

*sorry about being a blog hog* also wanted to mention you double posted your own comment above DM.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 6:42 PM
*sorry about being a blog hog* also wanted to mention you double posted your own comment above DM.

No problem - and thanks for the tip. Enter key gets a little wonky on me.

Ooh - Like a chain reaction from Jedi ghosts in the realm of the Force to the living Jedi, which transfers out to the "good" in the galaxy the living Jedi are empowered to uphold.

Yes, I think that merges well with the idea that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and Yoda and Anakin, by all of them retaining their individuality in the Force, might actually merge their ideals into the Force itself. Not changing it completely, but adding to it. Interesting.
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 7:17 PM
I'm not sure what to add...so many great comments. I think you must look at the result of the saga for answers. We begin with Qui-Gon 'listening' to the Force for guidance regarding the trade war, the senate, the Sith, and Anakin. Upon dying, he insists Anakin must be trained. Kenobi in turn does what the best he can, yet Anakin falls to the Dark Side. Perhaps Kenobi does not have 'the ear' for the Force that Qui-Gon did, even after years of communing with him. With Yoda, I feel more confidence than Kenobi, but not much more. I still think they have much more to learn from the Force. Be it their ties to the old ways or not, they still seem inadequate to the task of training Luke...con't
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 7:18 PM
...Only when Anakin and Luke come into contact, does each begin to search the Force for their own answers and their own truth - unburdened by teachers and old certainties, the real quest begins. In the end, Luke does as Qui-Gon does, he listens to the Force, release his fear of death in the midst of mortal battle and releases the power of the Force and maybe truth as well....
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 7:18 PM
...It's so overwhelming and transforming, Vader casts aside decades of 'evil' in favor of a son he doesn't know or understand, except what he sees before him as he stands face to face with the Emperor and the Dark Side. How do we tie Luke to Qui-Gon in this scenario, I guess it depends on your impressions the Force leaves on each individual and those around them. Perhaps something of Qui-Gon touched Luke through the Force.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 25, 2006 8:17 PM
How do we tie Luke to Qui-Gon in this scenario, I guess it depends on your impressions the Force leaves on each individual and those around them. Perhaps something of Qui-Gon touched Luke through the Force.

Perhaps in the idea that "your focus is your reality". When Vader's focus shifted from his hatred and bitterness to his son, his reality altered in a fundamental way.

And, like Qui-Gon and later Yoda taught, living in the moment, not in the past, or in the future, you can see what's really important and right in front of you.
  greenandwhitejedi
Bar 66
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 3:29 AM
Thanks, Dark Moose.

they couldnt fight battles or even use The Force on others

Coming in late here, but when DJ Maul said that it got me thinking. Obi-Wan tells Luke that he cannot intervene in his confrontation with Vader, but something about the way that he says it - or perhaps the fact that he says it at all - suggests that he could intervene if he wanted to. If so, I think the reason that he didn't was because he knew that the whole encounter would be crucial to Luke's development as a Jedi. Who knows what hidden secrets of the future were laid bare to Obi-Wan when he became one with the Force. With that in mind, perhaps the struggle on Cloud City was Luke's Trial of the Flesh.
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 12:17 PM
Wow. Great thoughts all around.

Most of my thoughts have already been posted. I have to say that I thought about all of this a lot differently before the PT (obviously where Qui-Gon is concerned!). As ROTJ ended, at least when it ended in 1983, I was left with the feeling that Luke's own conscience proved to be more redeeming than the power of the Force...that, in a sense, Obi-wan was redeemed, too, when Luke "saved" his father. Obi-wan's entire life was really rather sad and futile as we viewed it pre-PT. Everything he lived for tirned out to be "wrong," or in the very least, unnecessary.

(more)
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 12:23 PM
But then, along came Qui-Gon...the human source of ability of the Jedi to communicate with the living after death. For me, it wasn't until that point that the "blue glowies" became as significant as they are. After all, it wasn't until then that any of us even knew the difference...

That said, perhaps QG (and Yoda) was wrong only in the purpose of those Force-abilities. Maybe Jedi become one with the Force in order to continue their own spirituality...moreso than to "help" the living. In this way, the Light side of the Force would always grow and thrive.

Not sure if I'm making sense...I am to me, anyway! ;)
DJ Maul: Got Feet?
DJ Maul's Dancin' Cantina Party
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 7:25 PM
Maybe Jedi become one with the Force in order to continue their own spirituality...moreso than to "help" the living. In this way, the Light side of the Force would always grow and thrive.


actually that makes a LOT of sense...us "crude matter" types are always more concerned about US and physical matters (food, sleep, sex, money) and far less about the SPIRITUAL end of it all...perhaps once one becomes "one with The Force" it opens the way to be FREE of all those concerns that once ruled our lives and open up the possibilities of GREATER things to concentrate on...

DJ Maul: Got Feet?
DJ Maul's Dancin' Cantina Party
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 7:25 PM
Of course all this applies strictly to the SW universe. Personally I subscribe to the "when your dead your dead" theory...no heaven, no hell, and certainly no "Force ghosts."
  buffalowins
Why isn't Luke the Chosen one?
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 7:59 PM
Has anyone ever thought maybe it was Luke who brought balance to the Force and not Anakin? It was Luke who brought a fallen Jedi back from the dark side. It was Luke, who for a moment thought he could kill the emperor and become emperor himself but choose not too. Luke had no thoughts that he was "meant for more" as Anakin thought. The prophecy began with Anakin but ended with Luke.

- "Indeed you are powerful as the emperor has foreseen." - Vader to Luke Episode VI
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 8:18 PM
Luke was powerful as an agent of change, but GL has maintained that Anakin was really the Chosen One.

That doesn't diminish Luke's importance, and therefore the aforementioned power - either way you look at it, the Power of the Jedi prevailed through Luke, but was actually culminated in Anakin's redemption and fulfillment of the prophecy.

The end result seems that the Jedi ended up as the ascendant power again... although the discussion is open as to exactly how the Jedi were stronger or more powerful than ever before. We can only assume it does have to do with Qui-Gon's discovery in the Force.
amidalooine
The Emotional Galaxy
date Posted: Jun 26, 2006 8:58 PM
The end result seems that the Jedi ended up as the ascendant power again... although the discussion is open as to exactly how the Jedi were stronger or more powerful than ever before.

Wellllll...since at that point (the end of ROTJ), all of the Sith are dead, and there is one Jedi left standing, I'd say that makes the Jedi infinitely more powerful! :D

We can only assume it does have to do with Qui-Gon's discovery in the Force.

Agreed...has to be.
  greenandwhitejedi
Bar 66
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 2:33 AM
I concur that the "power" comes from Qui-Gon's discovery. When a Jedi is alive, they can commune with the Force and channel it's will, but once dead (once anyone is dead, according to Yoda) they become "one with the Force" - apparantly as a passive observer of events. I think that what Qui-Gon discovered was the ability to actually become the will of the Force, or at least to influence it. Unlimited power.
  discothreat25
Who can answer this
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 9:04 AM
How did Anakin learn how to become one with the force?
gold5
I lost Tiree, lost Dutch!..or How I learned to stop worrying and love the Death Star.
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 9:22 AM
It's already been said in other ways her but I have always seen Obi-wans statements to Vader on D1 from the view point of the earthly concept of this life being an illusion and the spirit world being the reality. There is no real death only change. We are limited by our physical selves and only on the spritual plane can we access our true nature and abilities. By striking him down Vader connects him with the Force (the spiritual realm and reality) fully.
gold5
I lost Tiree, lost Dutch!..or How I learned to stop worrying and love the Death Star.
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 9:43 AM
...Only when Anakin and Luke come into contact, does each begin to search the Force for their own answers and their own truth - unburdened by teachers and old certainties

A teacher can only teach what worked for them it is up to the student to find their own path. using or disgarding what they have learned.

How did Anakin learn how to become one with the force?

It is a natural state when one becomes at peace with themselves and acts out of love. Anakin in his last acts let the Force enter him once more and finds his peace at last.
  dancingdooku41
Grand Admiral of the Expanded Universe!!!
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 9:48 AM
The power Obi-wan mentions has nothing to do with say a sith lord perspective of power. Its kind of like hes been enlightend and that very thing makes sense to him now.
  JediCody87
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 10:06 AM
wow this is a pretty damn good blog-i think everything that happaned,said and tought did go into the jedi's new order,luke im sure after the return of the jedi knew the truths of and behind everything-i personally think thats why he moved the jedi temple from the politics,and started a new and more effective order-i only hope they make more movies to prove my theory,hahaha-even though LUCAS done said he was done.... :(
  JediCody87
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 10:10 AM
also i think obi-won was right and correct when he said " if you strike me down ill be more powerful then you could ever imagine"......obi won never lost hope in luke,its luke who lost hope in him self but at the end he over came all and even turned darth vador back into his father anakin skywalker
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 10:56 AM
I have always seen Obi-wans statements to Vader on D1 from the view point of the earthly concept of this life being an illusion and the spirit world being the reality.

That's echoed on the DS2, in the confrontation between Vader and Luke. As the spiritual battle rages, reality follows. When all seems lost, the battle in realspace turns in favor of Darkness and the Empire. But as Anakin is redeemed, it shifts. It goes from the ground team captured and the fleet trapped to the shield generator being destroyed and the fleet striking at the Main Reactor.

As the Force goes, so went the battle. I think that's exactly the point - Life and Death is the illusion, and the spiritual aspects are the reality.
  Michelle1968
M68- Star Wars Kid at Heart
date Posted: Jun 27, 2006 11:44 AM
Superb blog and outstanding comments! I can't think of anything to add...just wanted you to know I was here and enjoyed. :)

PS: Think I definitely need to print this one out and add it to the scrapbook! Thanks guys!