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 | Order 66 and the Oblivious Jedi |
 I have heard a great deal of general griping, moaning and groaning from all over the place; TFN forums to the lunchroom table about how incredibly lame it made the Jedi seem in Revenge of the Sith when they were all gunned down by their own clone army. Here are these incredible individuals, whom (mainly through EU) we've come to know and respect, getting taken out by a bunch of proto-stormies! It seems downright ridiculous, at first. Haven't we seen two and a half movies of Jedi whomping on practically every foe they come across, sans those pesky Sith? And how could they not see it coming if Jedi are supposedly so good at "seeing things before they happen"?
Well, of course, the clones didn't get every Jedi. Obi-Wan managed to escape, and a couple clones learned just how hard it is to sneak up on Master Yoda. (I'm also willing to bet Mace Windu would have lived if he had been on the frontlines at the time rather than falling out a window thanks to the Chosen One.) And there were a few Jedi we know of in the EU who also survived. However, the fact remains, according to the critics, the Jedi should have seen it coming.
The people with these complaints have, quite obviously, forgotten a couple things we learned in Attack of the Clones:
1. Jedi aren't perfect: You may sneer at clones and think they wouldn't have a chance against Jedi, but in the arena battle several Jedi are taken down by droids, sometimes not even droidekas, but run-of-the-mill battle droids. Apparently Jedi aren't invulnerable to random joes with guns. Plus, the clones had the element of surprise, which brings me to...
2. Palpatine is weakening the Jedi's sensing abilities: Even the Jedi are surprised at their own current lack of competency. According to Yoda: "Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see." So with Palpatine using whatever Dark Side magic he's got up his sleeve to "blind" the Jedi, they're far easier to take by surprise.
Also, as a bit of a sidebar, here's a thing to remember about stormies. Just because they seem to have lousy aim when dealing with our heroes, they aren't exactly bungling. Just tell those guys who died in the first five minutes of A New Hope that stormtroopers can't aim.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/obiwan1225886/2 |
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Blue leader46
The CIS Shadowfeed Department
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 6:18 AM
Well, the Jedi were in the midst of the clones at Order 66, so even if they knew what was coming they wouldn't have stood a chance. And anyway it says in the ROTS novelisation that the clones have no malice that gives them away, so that disproves your 2nd point.
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Blue leader46
The CIS Shadowfeed Department
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 6:56 AM
You may sneer at clones and think they wouldn't have a chance against Jedi, but in the arena battle several Jedi are taken down by droids, sometimes not even droidekas, but run-of-the-mill battle droids
Tell that to the people who made that CW cartoon. Oh, and there was about 200 Jedi in the arena, and 20 survived.
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Karen Traviss
"Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 7:45 AM
but in the arena battle several Jedi are taken down by droids, sometimes not even droidekas, but run-of-the-mill battle droids.
Well spotted, ObiWan... well spotted... 
so even if they knew what was coming they wouldn't have stood a chance.
But..aren't Jedi supposed to be...oh. never mind.
Tell that to the people who made that CW cartoon. Oh, and there was about 200 Jedi in the arena, and 20 survived.
I'm trying to reconcile those two statements.
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jedimastergoalie
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 7:47 AM
so that disproves your 2nd point
No, it doesn't, that's a fact.
Nice blog.
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Blue leader46
The CIS Shadowfeed Department
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 7:55 AM
But..aren't Jedi supposed to be...oh. never mind.
Jedi aren't supposed to be what? Super-ultra-mega-invincible heroes who can destroy armies with a flick of a hand? 
I'm trying to reconcile those two statements.
I was trying to say that tons of Jedi died, not 'several'. Sigh... 
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obiwan122586
The Alternatives to Fighting
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 8:00 AM
Blue Leader, I checked up on your statement about the death toll at the arena, and yeah, I guess a LOT more Jedi died. I'm just going on what I saw in the film. In the movie we really only quote/unquote see about a dozen or so Jedi bite the dust. At any rate, this makes my point even more valid than I had originally thought.
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Blue leader46
The CIS Shadowfeed Department
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 8:01 AM
Also, as a bit of a sidebar, here's a thing to remember about stormies. Just because they seem to have lousy aim when dealing with our heroes, they aren't exactly bungling. Just tell those guys who died in the first five minutes of A New Hope that stormtroopers can't aim
On a less offensive note: good point, obiwan122586! 
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Tkia Fett
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 8:34 AM
Quote from Battlefront 2:
"We learnt that the Jedi could be tricked. And if they could be tricked, they could be killed"
(Might not be the exact words)
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Master_Chrisco
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 10:58 AM
Very nice blog! And yes, several Jedi survived order 66 (we just dont see them in ROTS) they were unimportant to the movies example : "The Dark Woman" sunds like a very dangeous Sith's name eh? Well guess what she was a very misterious Jedi master with almost no past (no one knows it atlest) and the most unbelievably decorated sabers ive ever seen.Well any ways the Jedi were trampled over by the clones but, not to say that the clones did'ent have significant dead after the murder of the Jedi.
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Master_Chrisco
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 11:00 AM
And yes, I do believe the Jedi were blind I mean all the darkness and coruption in the senate would blind any force users mind.And if the Jedi would have known about this atrocios atack they would have fled and would have had way less dead.Good bye
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jkthunder
Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 1:40 PM
Yep - I agree at least on one thing - the Jedi were "shrouded by the dark side" or however you want to describe it. Its pretty much the main theme of the PT (and the saga at that). The balance tilted, yada yada. The Jedi Order were overdue to be restructured. The old structure made them weak and the dark forces emphasized that.
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solsticedawn
His men will follow him anywhere, ner vod. But only out of a sense of curiosity.
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date Posted: Mar 26, 2006 4:21 PM
Good Blog entry! I've read a lot of the prequel-era EU books, and they do keep mentioning how Jedi are having trouble with their "force vision". I think that Mace mentions it several times in his diaries in Shatterpoint.
I find myself feeling very sad for the Jedi and the way they were raised "without attachment". As a parent, it breaks my heart. People need to form attachments. Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of sociopaths; fine many of the Jedi turned out fine, but not all of them really followed the "no attachment" credo.
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JediMaster Kennington
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 5:09 AM
The Jedi scattered across the galaxy had learned to trust the clone troopers as fellow soldiers and they were surpised and shocked when the clones turned on them. And we must also know that even though the jedi knights are powerful warriors they are not invulnarable
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Darth Valor 7
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 6:01 PM
The jedi had become great friends with the clones, though alot is stated in EU the best movie scene or storyline is Commander Cody and obi-wan but this was happening all over the galaxy jedi thinking the clones as actual soldiers, beings, friends, not a tool that can kill them with a few words from a newly founded emperor. So what im saying is would you expect your best friend or a relative to kill you? A very thought provoking blog thanx 
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Dekhal
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 6:17 PM
It all comes to the "point of view". The story of StarWars is told from a certain perspective (the winners). Stormtroopers are soldiers of the enemy, so they are depicted the way they are (especially when facing the main heroes). May the light side of the Force be with you. 
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Jedi Historian
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 7:12 PM
I agree Darth Valor 7, because the clones did indeed have the element of surprise on their side. And they also were the least likely people for the Jedi to expect danger from. Ki-Adi Mundi actually managed to deflect a few bolts, but I think his and every other Jedi's concentration through the Force was severely hampered by the fact that they were still trying to wonder what was going on to actually fight effectively.
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Echuu-shen jon67
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 7:13 PM
I have to agree with what you said about the things in Episode II. Many of the Jedi's senses were clouded and plus there were quite a number of Jedi that got away if you have ever explored ####her into EU. Plus I'd like to add on that clones arn't the same as stormtroopers. Their armor bears quite a resemblance, but the stormtroopers of the Empire are mostly recruited. Clones were bred to be perfect soldiers. Cloned from Jango Fett a great bounty hunter and also given intense training. Clones were supposed to be the perfect soldier. Stormtroopers are not even close to perfect. They are simply normal men that chose to join the imperial army.
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green jedi rule
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 7:53 PM
Take a look at the scene where yoda goes to fight sidious. Sidious says that yoda is arrogant..."Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda, now you will experiance the full power of the Dark Side"...and yoda was arrogant saying things like..."Surprised are you?"...when palpatine says that yoda is alive. My theory is that perhaps the Jedi were arrogant with the fact that the clones would follow thier every order without question and the fact that the clones were supierior to droids. The Jedi would have never suspected that the chancelor whom they have been serving for ten years would make the soldiers that they have been leading into battle for three years turn on them.
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stevie2074
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 8:43 PM
Well from what I could see each jedi they showed on the ground was surrounded by troopers, all firing their weapons at once. And while in the cartoon they can block 100's of shots without little effort, I think that it's actually quite harder to deflect shots coming from different directions all at once. They were overwhelmed, and surprised. That's why they were defeated. Remember how Yoda and Obiwan just tore throught the remaining clones at the academy?
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darthrobert89
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 9:25 PM
yeah i feel bad they didnt last 5 min  oh well nice blog dude
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DARK LORD OF THE SPACEBALLS
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 9:44 PM
You also have to include another fact that the clones were bred from AND trained by someone who could go head to head with a Jedi, plus they've seen how the Jedi fight and can come up with a strategy to fight them. Overall great blog obiwan.
...And can someone please tell me how to get one of those pictures that appear next to your name?
...Oh yeah...You still can't hate the clones Blue leader
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I Macar
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date Posted: Mar 27, 2006 11:35 PM
I'd just like to add that I've gotten the impression over the years that a Jedi's main "spidey sense" or whatever you want to call it comes from the emotions of the people they're fighting. I'm not saying that the clones aren't really good at what they do or that the Jedi weren't surrounded and taken by surprize, but I think the most crucial element to that surprize was that the clones didn't feel anything or even care to a certain extent, they were just carrying out their duty. Not to say they didn't have emotions but especially with the standard troopers in the EU I think it would have been just another order. Since they were trained by Jango the Alpha ARCs may even have had specific orders to prepare for the moment Order 66 was ordered.
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obxcrew
Order 66 Survivors
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 5:48 AM
The clones felt no malicious or murderous intent, so the Jedi were not able to sense their motives until it was too late. The clones were merely doing their job. Also, they did believe the Jedi were traitors to the Republic, as Palpatine led everyone to believe.
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fleetcommander3
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 5:55 AM
About the Jedi being taken off guard...
On Mygleeto, Ki-Adi-Mundi turned around just before they opened fire. The clones didn't feel any malice until contacted by Sidious and they were loyal to the Jedi until Order 66 came through. In most cases, the order was carried out within seconds of its reception by frontline troops. Ki-Adi turned in those few seconds, feeling something was wrong, but there was not enough time to do anything about it...
Clone blasters were flying thick a few second later.
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headhunter8
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 6:30 AM
another thing to note is this:
its said in the RotS book that the jedi never saw it coming because the clnes had no malice, anger, or other emotions; they were just following an order. plus they had numbers and surprise. remember the raid on the jedi temple?
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Darth_Alpha1
Sith Happens, but Jedi Rocks
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 8:06 AM
Jedi Trap the Clone Wars was.
Palpatine/Sidious saw the fact of how the Jedi had always triumphed in past wars, as with the Battle of Geonosis. Yeah in a massive JEDI ARMY, they were near to unstoppable, working together and working off each other. But if he could create a war with multiple stages in multiple systems, he could cutt off that advantage.
Add the killing blow, Order 66, and once again, the Jedi relied too much on those around them. Even the Clans of younglings learned to work in tandem, never advancing as individuals...even Masters and Padawans worked off each other.
Yes I realize most could hold their own individually, but not nearly as well as when in pairs.
DA1 Force be with Ya'
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Republic_Commander 01
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 11:13 AM
I don't know if this has been said already but Ki adi Mundi put up quite a fight before he was killed on Mygeeto.
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anakinside1
Echoes from the Asteroid Field
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 12:04 PM
Great Blog and great debate. I agree that the lack of malicious emotions on the part of the clones in executing order 66, plus the Jedi forgetting that the clones were tools of war who only looked like full human beings, along with the element of surprise forms the perfect storm of events to virtually finish the Jedi order. I really appreciated the comment that contrasted the order 66 scene with Yoda and Obi-Wan slicing through the clones at the temple. Their particular power aside I think it still shows that the jedi would have overcome their attackers more or less had they understood the situation better. It was a perfect Jedi Trap.
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twilek21
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 12:30 PM
This is very true, I think that the idea of them being gunned down did make the movie seem lame. They should have tried to make a better plot for the demise of the jedi. However I was very impressed with how the gaps were filled in even though it seemed obvious.
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cbern
Omega Squad's 5th member
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 1:19 PM
I really liked this blog, as I was going to write on myself on this topic. I agree with almost everyting, except for where you said that Jedi were gunned down by clones. This is definitely true, but think of the numbers that the droids had to Jedi. But when the clones struck, they attacked in small squads, of 4-10. But I do agree with Palpatine's power to distract them, so...Nice job
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silver-saber
Rants of an old fool
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 1:24 PM
All we saw were the elite jedi fight, we have no clue how the average jedi would hold up.
and i'm sure the Commados could have taken down a fair amount of jedi.
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Tras111
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 1:39 PM
They should have tried to make a better plot for the demise of the jedi.
They shouldn't have made a better demise plot. It showed the heart of the PT: the jedi order had become too attached to the republic they served and had become blinded by complacency, to the point where they couldn't even put up a strong defense against the troops they once led. I thought it was beautifully done although it was obviously morbid.
(contin.)
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Tras111
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 1:40 PM
There are two points that people fail on: they don't give the clones props for being thoroughly trained killing machines, and they forget that while skilled and "well rounded" on most subjects, jedi were not warriors. Most didn't fight like warriors or even think like warriors. To be honest "General" was more of an honorific title which served to draw the jedi deaper into their sence of false security and complacency
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darthvolgen
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 1:51 PM
the only reason the jedi lost was because they were out numbered by so many clone
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twilek21
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 2:01 PM
they were out numbered but if the jedi are as good as they seem then why couldnt they have fought longer. I don't think that so many jedi should have been lost we want a fairly happy ending here right?
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Tras111
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 2:17 PM
the thing is we are in the middle of the story. The end is happy. mostly
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darthtiger12345
Star Wars Battlefront Review
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 3:48 PM
Very nice blog. However, I disagree with you on some points. Palpz was weakening the Jedi's Force powers.
And yes, I know, the Jedi aren't perfect, but you would think that anybody with a lick of common sense could figure out what Palpz was doing.
www.starwarsgalaxy.org
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obiwan122586
The Alternatives to Fighting
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 4:01 PM
That doesn't sound like much of a disagreement to me, darthtiger. That's exactly what I said, though you do raise a good point of asking the question,"why the Jedi didn't figure out he was behind everything?"
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rupind2@aol.com
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 4:11 PM
Lets say this, couldn't mace live the fall , in CW he jumped of a fighter, and lived 
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Obi-Wan6824
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 4:13 PM
several Jedi survived order 66 (we just dont see them in ROTS) they were unimportant to the movies
But if more survived, how did they die? After all, later is the saga Yoda says, "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi you will be". Sorry if someone already said this (i havent read all the comments).
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obiwan122586
The Alternatives to Fighting
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 4:17 PM
Many Jedi were later hunted down by Darth Vader himself, or allied with the Empire to avoid death. So, some twenty years later or so, Obi-Wan and Yoda were the last two Jedi.
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Obi-Wan6824
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date Posted: Mar 28, 2006 4:22 PM
And can someone please tell me how to get one of those pictures that appear next to your name?Actually u gotta b registered to hyperspace and have a blog name and stuff
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