Star Wars: Blogs | Those gnawing little thingies...

Those gnawing little thingies...

by: quin1974

date posted: Jul 22, 2005 12:24 AM | updated: Jul 24, 2005 9:07 AM

Blue Maul and Tyrannus

Well, since my first Thingie was SQUASHED so easily I have come up with something else that needs answering, and it concerns our favorite Dark Side friends Darth Maul and Darth Tyrannus.

We have all seen in the latest version of Return of the Jedi that Anakin came back to stand side by side with Yoda and Obi-Wan in his blue original Hayden Christensen form. The young Anakin returned because when he became Darth Vader his Light Side version was destroyed.

This leads me to my conundrum: Where are the blue versions of Darth Maul and Darth Tyrannus--or all the other slain Sith Lords of the past? Who were they before they were turned to the Dark Side? Was Count Dooku really Count Dooku, or was this a Dark Side mask as well?

And finally (this just came up in my head): are we safe to say that everybody is born as a clean slate (in a Plato sort of way)? Is everybody neutral at birth or is it possible to be born pure evil (like Rosemary's Baby)?

Hmmmm, this is a bit more that I was planning on posting. I hope it will give you people something to think about.

Now... go SQUASH!!!

http://blogs.starwars.com/quins_blog/2

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Singin Hobo
I find your lack of pants disturbing

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 1:15 AM

Qui-Gon was the first to discover the secret to eternal life... I don't think he was keen to share it with Dooku as he was to share it with Yoda and Obi-wan. And there was always a part of Anakin that remained, and I believe that Qui-gon loved him so much that he continued to try to save him.

The great irony is that the Sith seek eternal life, but only the Jedi can obtain it.

quin1974
Those gnawing little thingies...

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 1:22 AM

Point well said, but this leaves my other question: Who were they originally? Is this covered in any way shape or form in the Expanded Universe (sorry, I'm a little behind on EU)? I'm just very curious, I guess the Dark Side is drawing me in =D

BTW I think the theory of Qui-Gon finding the eternal life stuff is just a way for GL to sidestep a lot of questions like mine. Just a little too convenient too my taste...

	yoda_shisho
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 2:18 AM Qui-Gon was Dooku's padawan ... so Dooku was a Jedi Master at one time, actually one of the greatest ones (his bust was in the Jedi archives I believe) before he fell to the darkside. I think I remember reading in one of the books that Maul was was discovered by Sidious when he was a child, and trained from being very young to be a Jedi killing machine.

quin1974
Those gnawing little thingies...

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 2:38 AM

Soooo... I seem to remember the Count Dooku backstory now. He was a good guy once. He was just power hungry and was willing to do ANYTHING to gain more power... even become a Dark Lord of the Sith (albeit transitional, but he did not know that).

The Darth Maul backstory is just a little shady (or dark, of you will). If Sidious apprenticed Maul from a young age, he must have been heavy on the dark side to begin with, which would suggest that people can be born bad. (I really have to catch up with the EU). Bring out the comics and books!

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 6:21 AM

Neither Darth Maul nor Darth Tyrannus were redeemed from the Dark Side. When they died, they simply ceased to be. It is not that there is a "good side" and a "bad side" to every Sith. Using Anakin as a template in this case is misleading. Anakin was unique in that he still had good in him. Good had been fully driven from both Maul and Tyrannus. They were not in tune with the Force, they sought to artificially wield it. It's Anakin's eventual inherent harmony, along with Yoda's and Obi-Wan's, that allows these three to have "blue versions". Maul and Tyrannus are inherrently devoid of this harmony with the Force.

	jediguardian221 Yoda and obi were the only 1's to sense it?
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 9:13 AM HEY good point quin i just wanted to mention something if u have the ROTS game in the duel mode thing when you choose count dooku(obviously when he is evil) the 2nd choice for your opponent is a light side count dooku, the same with anakin 1 as anakin then the 2nd is VAder

	Darthvegeta800000
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 9:50 AM Jedi cannot eternally remain in ghost form. So in the end they have to rejoin the Force. Darksiders can eternally remain ghosts if they desire. But cannot know peace.

	Singin Hobo I find your lack of pants disturbing
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 6:36 PM Darthvegeta, that's oooooooold school EU... there's got to be better stuff than that on the horizon. Timothy Zahn is a great author, but the first act of the EU for 10 years was getting rid of Obi-wan... huge mistake.

jedimaster13109
Meditations of a Star Wars Fan

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 6:39 PM

I do not believe that as you suggest people can be born evil and be almost automactically drawn to the sith. More that Sidious hunted out one of the few with high midichlorians (spelling)

that the jedi had not already drafted and chose to train him. Think about that though giving a young child a chance to prove himself and I'm sure the ways of the sith sounded to him the same way they sounded to Anakin- just a different more powerful path.

jedimaster13109
Meditations of a Star Wars Fan

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 6:40 PM

	super clone dude
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:02 PM dude man dude! sith cannot turn blue!(they are ewvil!)

	Young Kenobi1
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:04 PM Darth Maul and Tyranus never came back from the dark side, Anakin did. And Dark Moose, thanx for the halp adn nice answer to this one

ithekro

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:16 PM

Well if one considers the origin of this issue....Obi-wan's death. You'll find that the whole force ghost thing was not originally suppose to happen. Obi-wan was suppose to train Luke and die at the end before Luke confronted Vader (in what would turn into Return of the Jedi) had this been one long movie, or a concrete set of three films from the beginning. But as we know, Obi-wan doesn't have a lot to do after leaving the Death Star, and the issue of having more films was an unknown, so Kenobi dies. (Alec Guiness would have hoped he stayed that way).

	ithekro
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:20 PM But then come a second film....the Jedi Master is dead....what do you do now? Enter Force Ghost Kenobi, to point the way to Yoda, Master of masters. So now, after all this, we have questions to something that originally was not suppose to be. Or at least that is what seems to have happened.

ithekro

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:20 PM

But as for Dooku and Maul....well, if we assume they turned peaceful at their ends (for whatever reason...hypothetically) and the current Hayden model is accepted as the primary way a Force user will look after death of soul to the Dark Side, then Dooku will look about 15 years younger then at death, and Maul....Maul will be baby or at least a child of some sort....a teen at the oldest if he doesn't turn fully until he actually attacks Sidious during training.

	ithekro
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:21 PM Hypothetically-if they could come back as evil Force ghosts...would they be red?

	MasterKalki
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:48 PM maul and dooku didnt turn back, anakin did and through his knowledge of the Force(and maybe with obi-wan&yoda's guidance)became one with the force.

	MasterKalki
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:52 PM maul and dooku didnt turn back, anakin did and through his knowledge of the Force(and maybe with obi-wan&yoda's guidance)became one with the force.

	stormraiderjedidragon
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 8:25 PM All very well said. I'd say (in the Star Wars universe) that everyone is born "neutral" until they make/have to make the decision to pick a side or whatever their case.

	The Dark Moose Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 10:15 PM Hypothetically-if they could come back as evil Force ghosts...would they be red? LOL - I like it :0)

Darius, Lord Of The Sith
Thoughts From Darius

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 11:31 PM

This is all explained in the novelization of ROTS. Qui Gon was able to retain his consciousness in the Force, but not his physical form. He speaks to Yoda and explains that he too can retain his consciousness and, with training while still alive, his physical form as well. Qui Gon also states that the Sith can never gain this power because it can only be reached through love and self sacrifice, not through self exaltation...

Darius, Lord Of The Sith
Thoughts From Darius

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 11:34 PM

... so, the Sith who died already before any sort of redemption on their part could never come back as ghosts. But Anakin, who does sacrafice himself to save Luke in ROTJ can come back (and he is most likely aided by the 3 Jedi who learned the power, Yoda, Qui Gon, and Obi Wan. Qui Gon never learned to come back in physical form, so he would never appear as a ghost. The Sith cannot. Yoda and Obi Wan can and do, and Anakin is taught how to do it when he dies.

Darius, Lord Of The Sith
Thoughts From Darius

date Posted: Jul 22, 2005 11:40 PM

... so, according to the novel, if you die and have either no training to retain your consciousness or no immediate help to do so from other Force-ratained Jedi, you simply cease to be (I know, I know... the question becomes how does Qui Gon figure it out after he died... who know, maybe Dooku tried to bring him back at some point). That's why you will never see any of the fallen Jedi or Sith appear as ghosts other than Yoda, Obi Wan, and Anakin. I think this would have been a good thing to actually leave in the film.

Jediguardian8930

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 2:13 AM

I believe Qui Gon learnt the spirit form through his own experiences which he shared with Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin. It's these experiences in the force that make every Force sensative different and also there abilities. I think that explains why so many Jedi/Sith have varing power. All jedi would have the core jedi carriculim at the academy as do the sith which trains jedi in core skills and force ability but many techniques cannot be taught but learned throughout life and it is then when a jedi has mastered his own unique force ability then he may share and teach others to use it.

	Jediguardian8930
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 2:14 AM Qui Gon mastered his own special connection to the force which he taught to the above jedi. Dooku never learnt the ability as when Qui gon had mastered the ability he had already fallen to the dark side. Maul trained by sidious was never in the position to learn the ghost ability like many other jedi.

Jediguardian8930

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 2:21 AM

A big thing which is evident in the movies is that there are many things about the force which are still unknown. And it is said that a jedi must grow in the force which i take to mean that the force will mannifest it self in may ways. Physical, spiritual, magical( force powers) and etherial. My question is the sith lord Sidious talks about in ROTS who obtained eternal life was he talking about a jedi who mastered the ghost ability then became a sith or a sith who mastered the ability?.

NRM_Skywalker

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 7:49 AM

For one Zahn's way of getting rid of Obi-wan was questionable - the distance is TOO great? from where? but Luke needed to move on his own. I think Obi-Wan actually saying hey I can't hold this form any longer and I want peace would have been better. In Knights of the Old Republic a ancient Sith Lord is a ghost but he can't become one with the Force so he knows no peace.

	Exterwinator
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 10:30 AM Um, just a small point to make: Exar Kun was actually the first Jedi to retain his ghostly form after death.

Exterwinator

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 10:40 AM

On another note, I believe Zahn did a fine thing in finally "killing" Obi-Wan, and in doing so might have raised a few questions about the Force. Overall, we all know very little when it comes to the netherworld of the Force, how long spirits can remain within, or if it takes a special kind of Jedi to even sense ta spirit's presence. Also, in the novel Edge of Victory Rebirth, the author wrote that Luke seemed to hear the voice of his first master, Obi-Wan, which prompted him to name is child Ben. I stick with my earlier comment in that none of us really dont know much when it comes to the netherworld of the Force. I am waiting for an authorized source to give me more information. Until then, all we can do is basically speculate.

	Jedimasterslyther
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 10:58 AM Only jedi, lightside force users can use this power. It was passed down from master to master, for 1000 years. Since Darth tyranus and Darth Maul were still darksiders when murdered, they were just dead, there was no force to take them in when death reached them. And yes, we are born nuetral unless taught or influenced otherwise.

Evil! Evil! Evil!

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 11:04 AM

In some of the books I have read, there have been evil spirits of SITH but they were EVIL. I think it is because Anakin became light again (remember: "Tell your sister....you were right." ((about good in him))). And the reason he looks young is beacause of the scars he had when he fell into the lava pit. Jus' my two cents. No more. No less. 1 cent... And another..... Ok.... that was strange....

	lightcutlass
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 11:46 AM I personally consider it corny if not representative that Lucas put Anakin Niveau(Christiansen) into the end scene of Jedi. They should have left it the way it was.

	Frogg�
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 1:58 PM The "blue" version of count dookuis sometime before he left jedi order. Maul was brought away as a baby and traind to be evil by Sidous, so you can say that he has alays been evil. I dont think that one can be born evil, we are born with a personality that can bechanged as we grow. That personality can be seen as evil to some peaople and good to other.

	Jedi_Rafa
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 2:09 PM It's like this, we can only see a certain jedi/sith after his death If, and only if, he was strong enough with the Force. Btw Singin Hobo Qui-Gon wasn't the first one to find the secret of eternal life, in KOTOR when your in Korriban you talk and see the spectrum of Adjunta Pall an ancient sith lord.

	Master Starkeiller POWWWAAAAHHH!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNLIMITEEED POWWWAAAAHHH!!!
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 3:51 PM It was John Lock, not Plato who introduced the tabula rasa theory. And I believe him, a baby is just blank. Nothing. Evil and good develop with age.

	Master Starkeiller POWWWAAAAHHH!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNLIMITEEED POWWWAAAAHHH!!!
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 3:55 PM Sorry, it's Locke, not Lock.

sowrdweilder

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 4:05 PM

look, the jedi use light side powers and the sith use dark side powers. the jedi that are attractide to the dark side but do not turn use both (like kyle katarn) and vice verca. coming back in ghost form through the force is a light side force power. if you ask the Q "why dont the sith just use that force power to have eternal life thruogh the force?" thats because they belive they are so powerfull that they will live forever and never die, aaaannnndddd they need to have light side traits. darth maul and count did not fite this catagory becuase they were to evil.

sowrdweilder

date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 4:07 PM

	R0-77
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 5:12 PM The simple answer is that Anakin redeemed himself, our other Darth buddies did not.

	darthrevan017
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 5:40 PM i agree w R0-77 SITH R EVIL

	Turlock Andrew
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 6:33 PM Maul and Tyranus did not come back to blue spirits because they were not saved to the light side, they died as sith lords and as evil people, and everybody is born good

	Anakin Skywalker_008 Anakin's chamber
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 7:45 PM Anakin was a good man he was only seduced by the dark side of the force and lets not forget he was the chosen one so when he destroyed the sith he was mortally wounded wich cost him he's life it is simple really he returned to the light side the others didn't that is why Anakin has a ghost side and the others don't.

	CaptainKeyes5575
date Posted: Jul 23, 2005 9:32 PM I think Dark Moose pretty much summed it up; and I like the idea of red Sith ghosts

	darthvaderisborn
date Posted: Jul 24, 2005 3:02 AM red ghosts

Master Starkeiller
POWWWAAAAHHH!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNLIMITEEED POWWWAAAAHHH!!!

date Posted: Jul 24, 2005 6:22 AM

Okay, everybody is born blank. An animal. With no thoughts, just instincts, so neither good nor bad. Then he develops a good side and a bad side but one of the two has to be stronger inside him. Before he dies, there is a chance for redemption for one whose evil side is stronger --and that doesn't mean selling your property to the Church in order to go to Paradise!--. So, in the Star Wars universe, those who are redeemed are the blue ghosts. Those who aren't are nothing. Simple enough.

quin1974
Those gnawing little thingies...

date Posted: Jul 24, 2005 8:57 AM

Ok, thanks everybody for the overwhelming responses to my rather naive proposition. I see now, after reading all these comments, that my idea was a bit simplistic. I see now that evil is evil and nothing becomes of evil. The redeeming factor in the tale of Vader/Anakin was the key I shoudl have looked at, silly me. I am going to close this blog now and let you all go rant and rave at another place on this awesome blog business.

Oh, and what about Exar Kune? That's something for another time...

Consider this one SQUASHED!

PS. I like the idea of red ghosts battling it out with blue ghosts on some ethereal plane

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