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Those gnawing little thingies...
by: quin1974
date posted: Aug 03, 2005 2:13 AM  | 
updated: Aug 04, 2005 11:33 PM
Yoda's failure at the cave
After reading DarkLordZor's blog entry called "But I Need My Weapons!" I started writing my response, but during this writing spree I came to think of another thing that seemed to bother me: Nobody ever talks about Yoda's failure at the cave on Dagobah!.

Let me elaborate: After having Luke in training for a few weeks, having him jump through hoops and jumping from tree to tree with a monkey on his back (sorry), Yoda decides to grant Luke the chance to perform the Spirit Test, the dreaded Test where one must confront their inner fears. We all know the outcome: Luke failed the Test dismally and subsequently ignored every advice Yoda gave him, going off on his foolish quest to avenge the death of Obi-Wan. When we look at this through Yoda's eyes, this raises a few questions that need answering:

Why in a hurry to Luke take Spirit Test I was?
A Jedi's training takes years and years. Although Yoda and Obi-Wan decide at the end of Episode III on a new approach in training (i.e. letting Luke be educated when he is ready for it), they couldn't have been so naive to think that they could train the boy in a short period of time to the point where he would be ready to take the Spirit Test, the biggest test of spiritual strength a Jedi Padawan could ever face before officially becoming a Jedi Knight.
Surely Yoda could see in Luke that he was prone to making rash decisions that were based on Anger, Fear, and Aggression. I remember Yoda saying, "I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience." When Luke went of to take the Test in the cave and ignored Yoda's comment "Your weapons... you will not need them", the little green guy should have stopped him dead in his tracks. He should have continued Luke's training until he would have been more ready.
Sure it is important to have people fail in their lives, this just toughens people up and makes them hopefully learn from those mistakes, but what if you knew that the person who was about to make that mistake was going to draw some very drastic conclusions from this failure. Would you have let him continue and screw up the rest of his own life and the lives of the people around him? I hope not. In the end it narrowly turned out ok, but even Yoda could not have looked that far ahead :)

Why in a big hurry exactly I was?
Exactly, why? The Empire was not threatening the universe with another humongous spacestation (except for the Executor of course, which was pretty big). Vader was only busy trying to find Luke. The Emperor was blissfully sitting on his throne on Coruscant ruling the Galaxy. The Rebels were busy finding a new home. There was no immediate threat that would require Yoda to speed up the training he was bestowing on Luke, except for the fate (destiny?) of Luke's friends, which was an elaborate ploy to lure Luke out of his hiding to begin with. And believe it or not, this leads me to another question.

Why from the swamp the X-wing fighter I take?
Yoda did not want Luke to leave for Bespin. Yoda knew what was going to happen (even if the future is always in motion). Yoda was willing to sacrifice Han and Leia to make sure Luke completed his training and would be stronger in his fight against Vader and the Emperor. Yoda should have left the X-wing in the swamp (or put it back). Without it Luke could not go anywhere. I here all of you saying: This would have angered Luke tremendously and would have worked against the Jedi training. True, but even Luke would have been able to see reason after having had a nice talk with Obi and Yoda about their reasons for not letting him leave. Luke was a new breed of Jedi, one shaped by experience, not doctrine.

But I also see why this was not done in this manner by GL and his cohorts: No sequel! Han, Chewie and Leia would be dead. Jabba would never have gotten either his money of a frozen Han and Luke would ultimately leave Dagobah strong enough to confront Vader and Palps by himself. Not a very cheerful ending to a movie serial.

All in all, I am convinced that Yoda should have paid more attention to what Luke needed to complete his training. Just as the Old Jedi Order screwed up their relationship with Anakin (like father, like son, right?)

Now, go and kick my @$$ for this transgression!!!

;)

  darklord1390
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:50 AM
intersting ideas. Not really sure about the last part though, about everyone dying? becasue as yoda pointed out in ROTJ Luke really didn't help all that much. Leia, Chewie, and Lando ended up saving him instead of the other way around.
I don't think yoda was trying to teach luke force powers or how to move things, that comes with experiance. What he was trying to do (which includes letting him leave) was that every decision has a consequence. I'm probably way off though, still new.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 11:13 AM
I see your points about why Yoda felt it necessary to rush Luke through his trials. But I think there was another agenda at work here.

Yoda knew Luke was "much like his father." If there was any one thing that was not done enough with Anakin, it was humbling him. Luke was impetuous and foolhearty, and arrogant in his abilities. I think it was Yoda's intention to make Luke fail, to show Luke that for him, because of his lack of commitment, some things were going to be impossible. When he lifts the X-Wing out, its not just to demonstrate it can be done, but that Luke, with all his power, lacked the control over his mind. "I don't believe it", he says. "That is why you fail", Yoda answers.
  Grandmaster of the Jedi
Chronicles of Kenobi
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 12:12 PM
I'm posting on your blog beacuse you just made my day! I saw my blog on your blog roll, thanks a million!:D
  NintendoALD000
Force Apparitions
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 6:41 PM
Here's the thing though: Yoda was not in a rush at all. Luke was the one in the rush, constantly pushing himself. Yoda didn't introduce Luke to the cave, Luke noticed it, inquired about it and then Yoda decided to let him in but you noticed the grim emotion on Yoda's face when he entered. He knew Luke wasn't ready but he knew that he could not stop him from going in and now's a good a time as any as the old saying goes.
  NintendoALD000
Force Apparitions
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 6:42 PM
This idea of Yoda not being hastey is reinforced when he wants to keep Luke from running off to Bespin but Luke totally ignores the warnings. Now you say that Yoda was in a big rush but there the Empire wasn't posing a humongous threat to the galaxy at the time but as we see in the last scene that Yoda is in in ESB, he wasn't in a hurry but rather the contrary.
  Enigma1313
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:08 PM
Alright....good point about the rushed training....but not about the x-wing. See...i dont think you fully realize yoda wasnt doing luke a favor....he was showing luke it could be done, with patience andcomplete determination...both things luke lacked.
  smashups
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:10 PM
I think the reason why he rushed in Luke's training was that soon enough the Rebellion would be corrupt by the Empire and crush them forever. The Rebel's dont have a home and are moving alot in space, while Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and Lando are being threaten by the Empire. There is a need of rush, train longer and there is going to many problems for Luke which well seem very impossible. Yoda is running out of time because he is near the end of his life. Obi-wan cant teach him through the spirit realm of the force, Yoda was teaching him the very issential and vital things to his training, not the basic's like how to control the force at your will or to become patient. Yoda knew that Luke would had to learn all that on his own.
  obiwancrs
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:13 PM
I agree with NintendoALD000. I don't think either that Yoda was in a hurry. He tried to teach Luke patience but he would not listen. There is another saying that comes to mind (this is a lose translation of what one of my teachers used to say to me): You become smarter from damage, and you learn from your mistakes. Luke was also a young adult, had not been taught from an early age to abide by the Jedi order. Yes, he did have some of his father in him - naturally. I don't think there was much Yoda could have done at this point to change Luke. Aren't we all a bit arrogant and think we know all when we are younger? So, Yoda let him go, to find out how much he really knew, and there was Obi (Ben) Kenobi to somewhat watch over Luke.
  Jedi Master Jam
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:20 PM

You have made very good points in your blog. I myself have wondered what happened in the cave. It was the Spirit trial or also know as the Miror trial. The porpuse of this trial is to see what is inside you. You can't realy fail at a trial like that, but Luke in a way fail it. If you watched the Clone Wars cartoons, Anakin goes through the same trail and sees Darth Vader. Obi Wan later told Anakin that many Jedi do not like what they see and that what they saw is not set in concrete, and can be changed. But Ani still went to the Dark Side. But back to Luke's failure in the cave. Earlier, Yoda told Luke that a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never attack. Luke went agianst his words and attacked "Vader."
  Jedi Master Jam
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:21 PM
At the end of your blog, you wrote "like father, like son." Anakin and Luke have dealt with the same temptations that led Anakin to the Dark Side. Ex. Anakin's vision of Padme's death, and Luke"s vision of Han and Leia"s death.
When Anakin went to Yoda about his preminsion, all Yoda said was "train your self to let go of everthing you fear to lose." Look where that got them. Yoda did not want to make the same mistake with Luke. That is why Yoda let him leave.
  Jedi Master Jam
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 7:22 PM
And regaurds to Luke"s crash course "How to be a Jedi 101" was that Yoda knew he didn't have much time left and it would be difficult for him to instruct Luke through the netherworld of the Force.
and Luke is the offspring of Anakin who was very frustated with the slow pace teachings of Obi Wan. Luke had the ability to learn extremely quick.

This is my take on things, email me back and tell me what you think of my response.
  Jawa-powa
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 8:13 PM
One thing that always got me was (not to be totally off topic)::

...When Luke arrives on Dagobah, he crashes out of control through the clouds into a random swamp, without any chosen landing coordinates.
Did Yoda cause THAT, by the way??...in addition to discussing causes and effects of raising the X-wing or not??
You know, funny how Luke ends up pretty close to Yoda's whereabouts and his hut ,out of that WHOLE planet. And I don't recall ghost Obi giving any coordinates to Luke when he was passin out on Hoth.

  Jawa-powa
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 8:13 PM


...To make a point, I am saying that Yoda must have manipulated the events of the cave in some way, in addition to it being consisted of the Dark Side, let alone all the Dagobah incidents.
I'll even bet Yoda foresaw Luke's duality about bailin out, and so he accomodated that somewhat, by reviving the ship.



  Anakin Skywalker_008
Anakin's chamber
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 9:01 PM
My theory is that Yoda knew that Han and Leia were in trouble and that he intended Luke to go and fail so he could realize that he needed the training to defeat Vader and succeed in the jedi life. So in a way Luke going to Bespin was a Master Yoda test.?:|
  Darth_Fritz
date Posted: Aug 03, 2005 9:37 PM
When Luke went of to take the Test in the cave and ignored Yoda's comment "Your weapons... you will not need them", the little green guy should have stopped him dead in his tracks. He should have continued Luke's training until he would have been more ready.
Yoda is trying to remind Luke of the delicacy of the situation. He needs to learn how his emotion will come back to bite him in the @$$. No, he doesn't have control, but he learns it, he learns from his failure in his first fight.
And the X-wing trick was necessary to humble him. It's like he's saying, "what, you don't like the way i do things? you don't want to do things the same way? watch this, moron. yeah, now what do you have to say for yourself?"
  quin1974
Those gnawing little thingies...
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 12:19 AM
Ok let me respond: I never implied that taking the X-wing out of the swamp was NOT an act of humbling Luke. I definitely think this is the case, BUT couldn't Yoda have used another heavy thing to demonstrate this and let Luke go on fiddling with the X-wing? I know this would be the only thing that would really impress Luke, but it doesn't look all that wise to leave the X-wing on the shores later on. Plus: It would have been a good lesson for Luke to get the X-wing out himself, right?

As for the coordinates, Jawa-powa, it was Luke's destiny to land near Yoda. The little green guy did not have anything to do with that. Let's leave some things in the shadowy realm of destiny and chance.
  quin1974
Those gnawing little thingies...
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 12:21 AM
Ow, and Grandmaster of the Jedi, glad to be of service ;)
  Darth_Fritz
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 12:58 AM
c'mon, don't you think putting the x-wing back in the water would be thought of as the equivalent of putting the cookie jar on the top shelf. or even worse, taking away a teenager's keys. it's like, "ok, when you're responsible you can have it back. i don't care how cute the twi-lek is, you're not taking her out in it."

plus- i think it might have taken luke a little too long to get the x-wing out on his own.
  Jawa-powa
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 1:58 AM
I still honor destiny / fate in SWstory. BTW Im not implying a plot flaw either. But I just don't buy that for Luke's crash landing. Originally, he had to consider how long it'd take to find Yoda, his ship being MUCH ####her away, too. Did he expect Obi to reappear? etc. to guide him to Yoda?
"...now we gotta find this Yoda, if he even exists..."--sounds pretty hung out to dry there. Then....Yoda.

I just picture Yoda watching him come in, having somethin to do with it too. Film clock and storyboards aside, I'd see it that way.

What's Yoda gonna do? bounce-flip his way across a planet to Luke, let alone crutch-walk?
The crash was controlled.
Fate = Qui gon finding Ani was unintended,
but Luke finding Yoda was not.
  Andrea4
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 5:42 AM
These three questions may be summed up into: why in such a hurry Yoday is??
Well, he knows he's going to die in short and after his dead there will be no other living Jedi master that could keep on with Luke's training.
  Toby-wan Kenobi
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 6:37 AM
I agree with the theory of humbling Luke because it wasn't done with Anakin. Anakin was always telling Obi-wan that he was more powerful than any Master, and Obi-wan never really demonstrated his mastery until he was forced to defeat Anakin on Mustafar. By then it was too late. I think Yoda knew this and that he was working with limited time. And oh by the way, the Emperor had just given Vader the go ahead to focus on finding Luke. The Dark Lord of the Sith would not task his apprentice to do something mundane.
  KyleRogers9
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 7:06 AM
It all goes back to the prophecy, that Anakin was the one who would bring balance to the force. He plunged the galaxy in darkness first, but, by Padme giving birth to Luke and Leia, he also brought the counterpoint to his darkness into the universe! Had Luke not gone to Bespin, he would of never learned that Anakin was his father, and no matter what, had he destroyed his father, instead of redeeming him, the galaxy would of gone on existing in the darkness of Palpatine. If Luke had never learned that Anakin was his father, he would of had no qualms of striking him down, and Vader, knowing that he was his son, did, that is why Luke would of been able to destroy Vader.
  KyleRogers9
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 7:07 AM
In a way, there was no light left in Vader, but Luke's excess light, woke up Anakin. It wasnt Vader who destroy Palpatine, it was Anakin. The only person capable of defeating a Sith lord, was a Jedi master, and goin into darkness and returning, had made Anakin just that. Luke was young, entusiastic and powerful, but he was not ready to face down Palpatine haha, i know im rambling, but im coming to the point! All that to say, the Force intended Anakin to defeat Palpatine....... and looking through all i said, everything else had to happen for him to do it! Yoda didnt want Luke to go, but he served the force, so even though he didnt understand it, he let him!.............

  KyleRogers9
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 7:09 AM
frig! sorry......... sorry for the rambling too! haha, figured id offer my 2 cents....... but that looks mre like a 5 dollar bill! ha, though i doubt its worth that
  Jedi Lord Archangel
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 10:16 AM
I'm agreeing with alot of the people here who are saying that Yoda knew he had limited time left to live. Also I really don't see Yoda failing. As Luke is taking off to Bespin to save Han, Leia and Chewie, Yoda tells him to "remember your training, save you it can!" Yoda knew that Luke has the potential to save his friends, he may not have seen the confrontation w/Vader at that time. Luke was ready, but unpracticed and he let his emotions get the better of him that is why he lost his hand.
  TyvokkaSaber
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 12:15 PM
I agree with darklord1390.
If you think about it, Leia,Chewie and Lando kinda saved themselves. I think Yoda felt that Luke was much like Anakin. Once his mind was made up, nothing could change it. Yoda thought Luke HAD to learn on his own.

I'm not sure why Yoda sent Luke in so early, though
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 1:17 PM
BUT couldn't Yoda have used another heavy thing to demonstrate this and let Luke go on fiddling with the X-wing?

Yoda's goal was not to trap Luke, but to arm him with wisdom. Yoda made the point himself that he couldn't stop Luke, and Obi-Wan said that he couldn't interfere. Part of Luke's training is making the right choices, or paying for the wrong ones. Luke would learn little if Yoda simply refused to let Luke leave. All Yoda ever gave Luke during his training was his ability to make good decisions, to feel the Force guiding him. That's why when Luke really needed this ability, it paid off. Yoda didn't tell Luke what to do, he opened his mind so that he could see better what he had to do.
  cayleldar
12 Parsecs or Bust (or) the Sith Who Knew Too Little
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 1:54 PM
Yoda let Luke go to the cave with the weapons because he would still learn a lesson. When Luke came upon Vader he immedietly went on the offence (not a very Jedi like thing to do). He used aggression to beat Vader. When the mask blew up and revealed Lukes face the Force was telling Luke "hey, if you head down this aggressive path your fathers fate will be yours as well".
  cayleldar
12 Parsecs or Bust (or) the Sith Who Knew Too Little
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 1:54 PM
Now I know that at that time in the movie Luke didn't know that Vader was his father but you should get my point. When Luke was getting ready to leave, Yoda said "remember your failer at the cave" he was trying to tell Luke, don't rush off like you did at the cave or the Dark Side will have you. Hope this makes some sense and answers some of your guys questions.

"May the Force be with me, myself, and I"
  GeneralGrievous87
A Long Time go in a Galaxy far far Away
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 1:58 PM
To keep it short and sweet that was one h.ell of a blog. I agree with you totally.
Well done!!!!!!!!!

Niall
  farneyboy
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 2:27 PM
One interesting note (and I would give credit if I could remember where I read it), is that Yoda was willing to sacrifice Luke's friends (and sister) because he had some perspective that we didn't realize he had. I always thought Yoda didn't care because he didn't know them. However, now, after the duel with Dooku in AOTC, it's now possible that Yoda realizes that had he NOT saved Anakin and Obi-Wan from the giant crane (sacrificing his friends) and just finished the job with Dooku (honoring what they were fighting for), the Clone Wars might have been extremely short, not to mention there would have been no Darth Vader.
  farneyboy
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 2:28 PM
Granted, Palpatine could (and probably would) have chosen another apprentice, but the whole dynamic of the Clone Wars would have been different, in my opinion.
  DarthDip
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 3:19 PM
i think that if yoda left the ship in the swamp, it woulda been damaged, and then whenever luke was "ready to go" then hed be in a real pickle now wouldnt he. all that training of yodas wouldnt be that useful if was luke was stranded now would it?
  Toby-wan Kenobi
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 3:28 PM
Great point farneyboy. I like your train of thought in the "passing on lessons learned" realm.
  ionlightdagger
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 5:46 PM
Well its Yoda's decision to train him as fast as possible not because of the Executor but because it needs to be done since there are no other Jedi Masters to train him. Sometimes you need to fail so it will not make you cocky and underestimate things. I am sure this is the lesson inside the cave. Do not underestimate Darth Vader and other opponents you encounter. Like father like son, yes indeed.
  Ivan Bqnov
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 8:47 PM
to quin1974:
the answers to your questions are in your own words.
Luke was non like Anakin - he has moral values and frends, which gives him strenght, and there isn't the direct influence of Palpatin.
You're doubting the Force - are you an unbeliever?
Without the help of Luke in the battle in orbit of Endor the things may develop differently. \whit Vader as Commander the TIE squadrons would crush the rebel fighters. And so on - the butterfly effect. And at the end Luke will fight alone agains the entire Empire.
  Anakin Skywalker_008
Anakin's chamber
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 9:28 PM
Ivan Bqnov Luke was exactly like Anakin because if you didn't know there is a trilogy of books called Dark Empire in wich tells how the clone of Palpatine seduces Luke to the Dark side of the force so Anakin and Luke are very much alike.]:)
  soberjedi24
redemtion from the force
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 10:21 PM
ypda dosent teach in a normal class room way, its not okay today youre going to learn how to be a jedi, he teaches by example or "what not to do" alot of the time. Luke learns a valuable lesson about the darkside and his own self when he can't lift the x wing, or understand that he'll end up like his father if he falls to the darkside. yoda didn't fail at all, if anything he "forced" things along al little too quicky, but thats probably because he knew he was dying.
  quin1974
Those gnawing little thingies...
date Posted: Aug 04, 2005 11:33 PM
Well, you people have to give me credit for gtting you all riled up like that :P

I am going to close this one now and I'm going to check out Empire again, because I think I have some learning to do, darn it!!!!

Bye and until next time :)
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