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 | Another Page in the Grand Humanity Debate |
Star Wars TV News: If this article is true, my original prediction about C-3PO and R2-D2 being the only "Known" characters featured extrensively on the TV series could be true. Huzzah! It wouldn't be Star Wars without the droid duo.
(Thanks DarthCharlie for pointing this out)
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Welcome to my first truly deep thinking entry (Well... There could be others. I can't be expected to remember all 100 odd of my entries!). I fully expect to contradict myself at least 5 times before we're through.
I could go off on a tangent first (perhaps a full entry) about why I think the clones should be, without doubt, considered human. If you frequent the blogs however you've already read thoughts like that several times over. So I won't waste your time with that. I'll just quote this from solsticedawn's entry which sums up my feelings.
"Even if I have modified a Mandalorian template to be more docile, the offspring is still fully human. Why? Because I'm certain there are other naturally bred individuals out there that are still more docile. Is there a point at which your German Shepherd is too docile to be deemed a German Shepherd? Too docile to be a dog? Again, clearly not. "
My thought is more focused along this line... People were taken to be trained in the Jedi ways/dogma when they were infants, toddlers at the most. For all intents and purposes clones were taken to be trained at the same age. If a clone isn't human: are Jedi even remotely human? They take children away from their families, never to return, with full knowledge of what they're doing. I also think that those Tusken Raiders over there in the blog image posess human qualities, which is important to remember for my second mini-entry.
Mind you these children are your every day normal people with the potential to grow up to be corrupt senators, smugglers, or Hutt gangsters, but noooo we're going to throw them into the heat of every major conflict in the galaxy because there blood has high miniflounder levels or some such! And don't get me started with "But they still have a choice to leave the Jedi Order" because they do... But hardly more than a clone had a choice to not execute Order 66. By the time a Jedi has any comprehension of what it is to not be a Jedi (and if we dip into the expanded universe for a moment I believe they're not allowed to even leave the Jedi Temple until they're 12. Good luck getting any perspective if you can't even see the outside world) that's what they are: a Jedi. Most people are going to have a hard time moving from being taught things like "possession is forbidden", "there is no emotion; there is peace", and that they're the sole guardians of peace, justice, and the Coruscantian way... To reentering society as a cantina barkeep or such.
So just for a little brief thought provoking thought to sum that up. Were the Jedi any less slaves to being pre-programmed for combat than the clones were?
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Now let's go into one more tangent because I don't feel this blog is quite long enough yet. Let's keep it on the subject of humanity though.
Padmé was a racist.
Some of you may have already realized that but I'm hoping at least half of you haven't.
Situation 1: Your boyfriend just slaughtered an entire village of Sandpeople on his own accord (not just the men... But the women... And the children too).
Response: To be angry is to be human, it's all going to be fine. Don't worry 'bout it.
Situation 2: Your husband just theoretically slaughtered some Jedi kids (you didn't actually see him do it... And he says he didn't... But whatever, you believe Obi-Wan).
Response: You're breaking my heart! I can't follow you! You're not the man I married! Obi-Wan was right! You've changed!
Basically I sum up Mrs. Skywalker's situation as thus
"I bought (married) a broken car (Ani). The dealer (also Ani) told me it was broken (They're dead.... Every single one of them! I hate them!). Then my friend (Obi-Wan) said it sounded like it had that gas leak problem (slaughtering innocents) the dealer (Ani) told me about about a few years back (Episode II). The gas leak problem doesn't seem much worse now (killing younglings) than it did a few years ago (destroying villages)... But I think I'll sell the car (Ani) anyway.
While I'm at it I think I'll lose the will to live (I think I'll lose the will to live). I liked that car (Ani). I suppose somebody else (Obi-Wan) can take care of the payments left on it (Luke and Leia)."
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Why was killing a few younglings who were going to die anyway so much worse than slaughtering a village of Tusken Raiders? Is a village of nomadic humanoids any less human and worthy of life than a small group of boys who are living in the lap of an elitist order of holy guardians? I don't think so...
But I was surely more shocked (and glad that Lucas decided to go that far) to even show Anakin preparing to slaughter the younglings than his actually beginning to slaughter the Tusken village... And that sort of concerns me.
I (along with many others having written blogs sympathizing with Padmé) went right along with her train of thought that he didn't truly fall until he slaughtered the younglings and such... But now I'm thinking she just bought a lousy car and never bothered to fix the gas leak. Anakin was no less human in Episode III than he was in Episode II. Tuskens are just as "human" as pre-programmed clone or a Jedi who was stolen from their possible life as a happy smuggler.
Padmé just didn't like Tuskens I suppose... She thought those little helmets the younglings had were cute though.
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So there you go. Bonus points to whoever can point out the most times I contradicted myself in the course of my ramblings! I'm sure there had to be a few.
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◄ Rive Caedo►
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http://blogs.starwars.com/rive/105 |

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jedi_fry13
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date Posted: Mar 20, 2006 11:22 PM
Are you on Crack? Padme is a racist? Whats up with that? You're breaking my heart! I can't follow you! You're not the man I married! Obi-Wan was right! You've changed! How is that racist? cause you know there is just a big race of anikins running around. you got something wrong with you. I just dont get how thats racist? answer me this. What race are you talking bout? sand people? Padme was comforting him. how was that racist? it just blows me away what nerve you have to write this rediculous blog. and then comparing it to a car dealer or wat ever that bullshiit that was. it has nothng to do with any of that. man that felt great to say. next time think bout what you blog bout.
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macewindu882 Don't Go All Chewie On Me!
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date Posted: Mar 20, 2006 11:31 PM
Don't listen to jedi_fry13. He might be on crack.
Great blog. Very thought provoking.
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 12:06 AM
Don't listen to jedi_fry13. He might be on crack.
Might? 
I'm suprised he actually seems to have read the whole thing though, even if he failed to realize the parallels between Jedi, Clones, and Sandpeople.
I suppose I'll respond anyway.
Padme was comforting him. how was that racist?
Because she seems to completely disregard the fact that it was an evil act (You killed them? That means you're human. Don't worry about it.). But then when it's Jedi younglings which are harder to ignore simply because they can speak... We find it deeply evil. So does she.
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Arf Maul We'll Blow Your Planet Up!
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 2:33 AM
> Star Wars TV News: If this article is true, my original prediction about C-3PO and R2-D2 being the only "Known" characters featured extrensively on the TV series could be true. Huzzah! It wouldn't be Star Wars without the droid duo.
The Adventures of the Tantive IV, anyone?
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bendakstarkiller617 bendakstarkillers kill count
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 5:27 AM
good blog it showed a diffrent side of the whole situation I do agree with you about the padme racist thing because in ROTS she freaks out but in episode 2 she's like "whatever."
about killing a whole tribe of tuskens.
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luuke.skywalker
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 5:45 AM
Padme was a racist
I'd never quite looked at it that way, but I did find that situation a little contradictory.
> Star Wars TV News: If this article is true, my original prediction about C-3PO and R2-D2 being the only "Known" characters featured extrensively on the TV series could be true. ...The Adventures of the Tantive IV, anyone?
Oh, so it will the the Droids cartoon with live actors then?
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Jedi Master Mina Another Galaxy, another time
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 6:53 AM
Bonus points to whoever can point out the most times I contradicted myself in the course of my ramblings! I'm sure there had to be a few.
Mmmmm....5. Do I get the "brownie" bonus points? Nice thought-provoking-loop-reading you created. Never thought of Anakin as a broken (lemon) car...Gives a whole new meaning to the character!!
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 8:06 AM
Oh, so it will the the Droids cartoon with live actors then?
Droids took place over about 5 years I think... So they still have about 15 years worth of stuff they could do with Artoo and Threepio
Mmmmm....5.
I suppose that's gotta be worth a brand new car. We'll give you the sleek new black version of the Skywalker model. Don't worry about that raspy noise the exaust makes.
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jediholteh
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 9:04 AM
Interesting point of view. I never would have thought of Padmé as racist. But it does seem that way. I always thought she sort of blew off the Tusken killings like it was nothing, I just never put two and two together. (It makes four, right?) Anyway, good blog. 
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Darth Rex0 So be it....
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:10 AM
Your husband just theoretically slaughtered some Jedi kids (you didn't actually see him do it... And he says he didn't... But whatever, you believe Obi-Wan).
Wait a minute. I don't think Padme knew what to think. Remember, however badly written it was, she was in love with Anakin and she believed them to be soul mates. I can speak from experience that the "spouse" will refuse to believe such evil thoughts for awhile (denial) despite contradictory evidence. It wasn't until she spoke with Anakin on Mustafaar that it hit her like a lead weight, thus her line that follows makes sense.
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jkthunder Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:11 AM
"Huzzah" is right - (from the article) "But we will be using Anthony as C3P0 because there is such a thing as loyalty." - Havent heard the 3PO thing until reading that. This is supposedly a quote from Rick, so Ill take it as true. I am assuming the show will have a base around Alderaan as well, which would be cool - giving the big powie scene in ANH more meaning to us.
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Darth Rex0 So be it....
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:12 AM
Besides that, I think you raise some great points, especially about Padme's reaction to the slaughter of sandpeople. To me, thats why I never bought them falling for each other. Would you go for a guy that needs to sort out some slaughtering issues? Don't answer that. Maybe she was just scared or something
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jkthunder Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:16 AM
But hardly more than a clone had a choice to not execute Order 66.
I see how you are using this to support your arguement, but really you are leaving out a lot of elements which would make the Jedi upbringing seem more honorable. As usual, its a POV thing. I dont think for a second that the Jedi maliciously "took" children (the parents had to let them go - parents probably even brought kids to the Jedi), and whatever the EU said, I think the younglings went out of the Temple with escorted just as much as you wouldnt let your own 12 and under kid roam the streets freely. The Jedi were "programmed" as much as any of us are by the schools we go to and the community we grow up in.
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jkthunder Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:21 AM
Padmé was a racist.
I dont know if "racist" is the word I would use exactly... speciesist? Alienist? Something... but I agree. And aside from the Tuskens vs. Padawan/younglings scenario (which is very well presented my friend), might I add the Gungans into the mix? Padme did exactly what any self effacing politician would do by putting on a show of "begging" the Gungans to fight "with them", after a huge history of treating the Gungans like second class citizens or worse. And what did they do? Put the Gungans on the front lines. Thats right! If anyone is gonna go down first, let it be them!
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jkthunder Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:26 AM
Don't worry about that raspy noise the exaust makes.
Bookmarks: add: SW sound - Thanks for the sound clip RC. I was looking for one of those
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Jedi Master Mina Another Galaxy, another time
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:35 AM
I suppose that's gotta be worth a brand new car. We'll give you the sleek new black version of the Skywalker model. Don't worry about that raspy noise the exaust makes.
Ok...You can have it shipped to: 555 Skywalker Lane, Execute-66, The Galaxy, 777-777. Just make sure it is not a lemon.
When life gives you a bunch of lemons...You learn to make lemonade
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:38 AM
The Jedi were "programmed" as much as any of us are by the schools we go to and the community we grow up in.
You generally have your options fairly open for what to do with your life. But once forced down the Jedi path (by parents that probably couldn't afford to feed you the extra blue milk required by your high miniflounder level) it dominates your destiny.
I dont know if "racist" is the word...
Speciesist! That would have worked! I seriously spent like 5 minutes looking for the proper term. Alienist doesn't work well because it has another definition... Xenoist seemed right but I couldn't find anything to back it up...
Besides "Padme was racist!" is much more catchy 
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 10:47 AM
Would you go for a guy that needs to sort out some slaughtering issues? Don't answer that. Maybe she was just scared or something
Ooo, I can see the tag line for my next entry now. "Anakin forced Padme to marry him!"
Ok...You can have it shipped to: 555 Skywalker Lane, Execute-66, The Galaxy, 777-777. Just make sure it is not a lemon.
No mam! This here model is the latest and greatest bit of machinery off the Skywalker Autos line... Just try to keep it away from electrical storms. It tends to make it um... Die.
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ewanandhaydenfan5 I Have You Now!
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 11:28 AM
Interesting blog.
There are 2 very different scenarios here. When Ani confessed to killing the Sandpeople, he was in a vulnerable state. Padme could have been trying to calm him down. Shmi had just died in his arms and maybe Padme knew he was a tad emotionally unstable. On the other hand, the Sandpeople women and kids were innocent. Maybe Padme didn't want to express any outrage at that moment because of Shmi's death and the way she died.
(contd)...
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ewanandhaydenfan5 I Have You Now!
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 11:29 AM
...When Padme and Ani confronted each other on Mustafar, Padme had just learned from Obi-Wan that Ani was falling to the Dark Side (I don't know if she believed him), and she knew of the struggles he was already going through (being "under a lot of stress"). She was probably stressed out herself and was at the end of her rope. She was also pregnant, and that lends an additional, heightened dynamic. She's more sensitive. She could have been thinking more from a mother's POV, as if one of the younglings was her own.
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 11:33 AM
She could have been thinking more from a mother's POV, as if one of the younglings was her own.
Now there's a very good point that somehow completely evaded my thoughts... I suppose because I'm not a mother 
I suppose my point about me and many other viewers being more effected by the Younglings than the Sandpeople stands firmly enough though 
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jkthunder Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 11:56 AM
You generally have your options fairly open for what to do with your life. But once forced down the Jedi path...
Again, a 10 year old in the Jedi Temple has just as many options as any other kid the same age, mentally at least. The clones were way more isolated than the Jedi or anyone else brought up in a structured environment that is catered to thier particular talents.
Dont get me wrong, I beleive the Jedi had flaws in that era, and Luke tried to compensate that with the NJO, and therefore they fatefully were deconstructed, but I dont think that it was inherently the Temple life structure. Its not the same intent as clone building. A big baddie was when Yoda opted to use the clones IMO.
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jkthunder Seven Pieces
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 11:56 AM
... Use the clones for war and political reasons that is.
I suppose because I'm not a mother
Yeah... but I still tend to agree with your view RC (and even though Im a girl, Im not a mother). Padme just wasnt affected by the fate of Tuskens and Gungans. A "good" Jedi would avoid killing anyone if at all possible. The Tusken situation should have been a heads up for her, but judging by the way she treated the Gungans, she obviously already had that mindset "programmed" into her
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captainj007
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 12:26 PM
Great blog Rive! I couldn't agree more. It is a simple thing we see every day. "Why is that great girl with that loser?". I can't tell you how many times I asked myself that in high school and college. But, I digress, it seems that Padme should have come to her senses in AOTC. And then ... right afterwards (on Geonosis) professes her undying love for him. Give me a break! I have always had trouble with that one.
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Master_Kenobi17 Takin Over For Talon
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 12:58 PM
... To reentering society as a cantina barkeep or such.
Wait wait wait, so you're saying Wuher was one of the Lost 20?
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 1:10 PM
"Why is that great girl with that loser?". I can't tell you how many times I asked myself that in high school and college.
Yeah, at least Leia waited until Han had done a bit of real heroics by saving Luke. I mean Han was a cold blooded killer too I suppose what with the shooting Greedo before... Ah... Nevermind, they changed that
Wait wait wait, so you're saying Wuher was one of the Lost 20?
Yep, why do you think he was so surly? Left over remnants from his Jedi training to restrain his emotions. Poor ol' Wuher. Never learned to love. 
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jkelly There Is No Conflict
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 1:59 PM
Perhaps racism/ specieism is unavoidable. All the aliens (note how they're called "aliens" in one large grouping) are homogenous. The Wookies are tinkerers, the Kaminoans are cloners, the Hutts are criminals (like the Italians), the Vulcans are logial, the Klingons are violent -- got a little off track there.
Then, when the humans grant a token position to the aliens everyone gets all proud of themselves. Case in point: Admiral Ackbar. No one could say anything wrong about him, but all he ever really wanted to do was retreat.
Even SW can't seem to get away from over-simplifications and affirmative action.
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jkelly There Is No Conflict
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 2:00 PM
I don't think Padme knew what to think. Remember, however badly written it was, she was in love with Anakin and she believed them to be soul mates.
He's right, the love plot line was bad, but I blame the acting, not the writing.
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 2:11 PM
The Wookies are tinkerers, the Kaminoans are cloners, the Hutts are criminals (like the Italians), the Vulcans are logial, the Klingons are violent -- got a little off track there.
True... What terrible morals and mindsets we're teaching the masses!
"Mommy! I want to be a fireman!"
"Sorry my little Jabba, you're going to be a crime lord. You're a Hutt. That's what we do. Or you can be a Pizza maker"
"But what if I wanted to..."
"Crime lord!"
He's right, the love plot line was bad, but I blame the acting, not the writing.
Can't it be a bit of both? 
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DarthVicomte Vicomte's Blog Extravaganza (Now Defunct)
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 3:38 PM
Are you on Crack? you got something wrong with you. it just blows me away what nerve you have to write this rediculous blog. and then comparing it to a car dealer or wat ever that bullshiit that was. next time think bout what you blog bout.
Ah, so it's not just me..........
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Darth Rex0 So be it....
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 4:18 PM
Ah, so it's not just me..........
What kind of comment is that? Are you on Crack.....etc, etc, etc.
No its not just you and I seriously doubt that usuer even read the whole blog and was just reacting to the title.
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Diviner525 In the Flesh
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 4:19 PM
Why was killing a few younglings who were going to die anyway so much worse...
The village of Tuskens had abducted and tortured his mother (to her death). And when he stepped outside of the tent, the Tusken warriors charged at Anakin. Not excusing his slaughter of the Tuskens, just putting it into that light. (Avenging the loss of a loved one).
The killing of the younglings was symbolic of Anakin turning against his own "little brothers and sisters" and attacking friends and such. Seeing him turning on friends provokes an intense response within us. (Betraying the trust of friends and companions).
After all the youngling innocently approaches Anakin with "Master Skywalker what are we to do?".
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Diviner525 In the Flesh
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 4:25 PM
Again, not making Anakin's slaughter of the Tusken women and children any less horrible, but the context of killing the Jedi younglings is just so horrific.
It's off the charts.
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It shook Padme to her soul. I agree with Darth Rex0, at first Padme was probably putting it all into denial - until Mustafar - and she can see for herself what Anakin is becoming.
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p.s. I always wondered if you and Vicomte were on crack. 
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 7:24 PM
The village of Tuskens had abducted and tortured his mother ... him turning on friends provokes an intense response within us. (Betraying the trust of friends and companions).
After all the youngling innocently approaches Anakin with "Master Skywalker what are we to do?".
I think you just stole the exact comment I would have typed out if someone else had written this entry 
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Diviner525 In the Flesh
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date Posted: Mar 21, 2006 7:53 PM
uh-oh. I think I've been reading too many of your blogs.
Either that or I'm on crack too. 
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Darthcharlie32 The Cantina at the End of the Universe!
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date Posted: Mar 22, 2006 4:54 PM
(Thanks DarthCharlie for pointing this out)
awwww thanks....... a whole blog spawned from a question asking email....
I always wondered if you and Vicomte were on crack
*cough*.......................................*cough*........................
I'll Be in my bunk....
LOL
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 22, 2006 9:44 PM
well maybe not a whole blog...
More of a blurb. Sorry you couldn't keep your delusions of grandeur. 
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darthmel69
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date Posted: Mar 23, 2006 5:44 PM
ok, i don't think padme is racist.
Man, that blog was long.
But i thought she was just comforting him.
She was still pretty upset about it...
So upset that she died...
so call that racist? (speciest?)
i don't.
And in the books they said she thought 'THE CHILDREN!'
so i still think that she is the same loving, caring padme that we all know and love.
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Darthcharlie32 The Cantina at the End of the Universe!
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date Posted: Mar 25, 2006 12:01 PM
Sorry you couldn't keep your delusions of grandeur.
ohhhh i got plenty more where that came from LOL
i think it worked... im the featured blog LOL
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