Star Wars: Blogs | Rive's Uncharted Settlements | Was Darth Tyranus Really Necessary?

Rive's Uncharted Settlements

by: Rive Caedo

date posted: Oct 23, 2005 11:47 AM | updated: Oct 24, 2005 7:14 PM

Was Darth Tyranus Really Necessary?

((In Stage 2 of my purging of The Holiday Special from my system, this though sprang up while watching Episode II.))
_________________________________
No not Count Dooku, he was completely necessary as a leader to the separatists controlled by Darth Sidious.

Why did he have to be a Sith though?
_________________________________
Mace Windu: You realize County Dooku was once a Jedi...
Ki-Adi Mundi: He's a political idealist, not a murderer.
_________________________________
So where in there did he have to be a Sith? Couldn't he have been a more unique character as simply a fallen Jedi? A true idealist.

The easiest way to imagine how this would be for many people is imagining Dooku with a orange or yellow lightsaber. A middle-ground between red and the lighter colors, similar to Windu but a bit closer to red. As a side note this turns Dooku's saber into something unique two times over, a unique color and the unique curved handle (one could even argue that the curved blade is what gives off the unique orange color from a red crystal)

Suddenly Dooku's asking for Obi-Wan's help turns less from Sith treachery to true idealism, trying to defeat the Sith and reform the galaxy.

Rather than worrying about his own power in that moment, Dooku worries about why he fell from the Jedi in the first place, he feels the Republic and the Jedi Order are falling apart and losing their way. Thus he starts the war to try to right these wrongs, allying with Sidious who has revealed to him that he is a Sith Lord and leader of the Republic! This reinforces Dooku's conviction that the Republic is a stagnant beast that can't recover and the Jedi have been blinded by the Dark Side. He does not believe he can defeat Palpatine alone, but thinks he now is one step ahead of Palpatine and can use this to his advantage.

As a true idealist Dooku referencing sadly to Qui-Gon joining him takes on more significance because it's not unlikely Qui-Gon would have joined him trying to reform the Jedi Order that Qui-Gon so openly defied. Though it's unlikely Qui-Gon would join the Sith Lord Tyranus.

Dooku using distinctly Sith Lightning could be confusing, so either this would be changed into a very powerful Force Push disabling Anakin in the same fashion (Obi-Wan and Yoda would resist it by "Pushing back" as Obi-Wan and Anakin do in Episode III), or leaving it the same and assuming Dooku has accepted "A wider view of the force". Either way the only line you really need to change in Episode II is Yoda's "Fought well you have my old padawan, the Dark Side I sense in you" deleting the reference to the Dark Side and possibly adding in some reference to Dooku being a fallen Jedi.

In Episode III you would unfortunately need to change the "Sith Lords are our specialty." line, either changing the exchange to somehow base around "He's the leader of the droid army" or simply "He's too powerful".

Dooku would feel the same shock from Palpatine tell Anakin to kill him because Dooku has always felt he was one step ahead of Sidious, he thought he was using the leader of the Republic to create his perfect galaxy. He thought he would eventually be the one to destroy the Sith, restore the Republic and revitalize the Jedi Order, but all that has come crashing down around him.

At this point we would feel sympathy for Dooku moreso than his current incarnation in the films, so Anakin's killing him becomes much more wrong than killing Darth Tyranus. Dooku was only doing what he felt was best for the galaxy.

So with the removal or editing of 2 lines not only do we have a more unique and sympathetic Dooku, but we also have a more unique character than our 4th Sith Lord. The eloquent, orange saber wielding, true idealist.
________________________________________________________________________
◄Rive Caedo►
-Blog Index-
-Star Wars TV Show Guide-

http://blogs.starwars.com/rive/54

Click here to hide comments for this entry

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 12:04 PM

You know, in a weird way, I'm not sure I consider him a Sith, even though I believe he did. He was extremely ambiguous, and I still have the feeling that much of what he did was not motivated by hatred and fear, like Anakin, but by righteous anger for the slow demise of the Republic and the Jedi. The line Anakin crosses may be clear, but the line Dooku crosses is far more fuzzy and broad.

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 12:04 PM

He ended up a Sith, but I wonder if it was exactly clear even to himself - how. I think he was necessary if for nothing else but to give us insight into Palpatine's treachery. He has no qualms about throwing his own to the dogs, and he uses them as such. Dooku was a shield, a "dirty job" guy. In the end, he was the one that shows up how completely expendable Palpatine's associates are. If he seems like a throwaway character, its because he was meant to be one.

	shatterpoint282 ''This Party's Over ''
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 12:06 PM It would have been interesting 2 see dooku as not a sith lord but a fallen jedi . I don'treally think of him as darth Tyranus , I'm not sure why though , I guess he doesn't seem very evil .

jedi_abba
"Lets Blow this thing and go home!"

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 12:29 PM

If you read the book Labyrinth of Evil written by James Luceno in the 11th chapter there is six page long conversation between Obi-wan and Yoda about Dooku and the theorys of the sith. One of Yoda's thoughts of Dooku had said they think he left the order and joind Sidious after Qui-gon had died. Yoda also said its one mystery that may never be solved, the way of the sith. another thing brought up in this conversation between the two is Sifo-Dyas. Yoda says Dooku and Sifo-Dyas were once friends. Also it was belived Dooku is the one who murderd Sifo-Dyas, his friend.

All of this is from the Book, Labyrinth of Evil.

	mubos
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 12:59 PM I can see where your coming from cose i'vw never seen him as "darth tyranus the sith lord" but more "count dooku the political figurehead". a dark jedi persona would have made more sense cose then he wouldnt have two names. however even they tend to use red sabers, dark powers and are basicly sith by another name to continue the rule of two.

	Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 1:23 PM DM: A good point about Dooku being "A throwaway character" to show Palpatine's self centered view. Your first comment actually draws more towards my point though I think, what's more fuzzy and broad than the "Grey Jedi" caught between darkness and light? shatterpoint282: Ah, there's another sort of agreeing with me.

Rive Caedo
Rive's Uncharted Settlements

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 1:25 PM

Abba: Yes, if the history of Sifo-Dyas was more concrete in the films I could draw upon that. This is mostly centered on the film along though, since EU sources do make him a bit more convincing as a Sith. (Or at least, thinking of himself as one, as Moose said)
Mubos: A direct Dark Jedi persona would be too confusing for the non-EU aware audience I think. They would be confused what the difference between a Sith and Dark Jedi is. In any case I think that would weaken what I was trying to say about Dooku being a very sympathetic character thus I painted him as more of a "Gray Jedi" with the orange saber to help convey that.

	shatterpoint282 ''This Party's Over ''
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 1:27 PM Jedi abba : I'll try 2 see if its at my local library , if it is I'll get it out .[ Where did you come up with your sw.com screen name ? ] Rive : BTW good blog .

	Skittoi Aleno Droid Uplink
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 2:26 PM Similar to Moose, I dont really see Dooku as a Sith Lord. Though he sometimes enjoys seeing the suffering of other (mostly in EU), he is just a "political idealist"

Dexstar100
It's me baby, it's The Dexstar!!!!

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 2:49 PM

That's deep. However, I must admit that when I first saw him in Episode II and since then I always just saw him as a bad guy. I didn't exactly consider him to be a sith at first. Then when he met up with Sidious I figured "Well, he really is with the bad people and he must have just been trying to trick Obi-Wan into joining their side" But that's a very interesting blog. It give me a whole new perspective to look at Episode's II and III now. I just hope I can think that deep when I'm watching them.

And off the subject:
Who's excited about watching all six in a row, straight through, non-stop!!??!!?!?!??

jedi_abba
"Lets Blow this thing and go home!"

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 3:44 PM

Jedi abba : I'll try 2 see if its at my local library , if it is I'll get it out .[ Where did you come up with your sw.com screen name ? ]

I got it at my local library

Maybe yours will have it too.

I have been jedi abba for 12 years

lol. When I was 2 I couldnt say my first name (Ashley) and I called myself Abba....so later on it became my familt nickname. I was going for a unique user name so I thought Jedi Abba was unique enough

	Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 4:33 PM At least it doesn't have numbers (er... no offence to DarthVader828517)

	mubos
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 4:48 PM Rive Caedo: They would be confused what the difference between a Sith and Dark Jedi is. i can see what you meen by this but there is little difference between sith and dark jedi, it is simpley one word wrapped in another. but even some people can find that concept confusing.

Darklord49
The Dark Side is Stronger!

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 5:06 PM

Well in the episode 2 commentary George says something to the fact that he wanted the viewers to see, that a jedi could be turned. So Anikan's fall is more believable. I think I like Lord Tyrannus the way he is, and don't feel he needs changing. But to tell you the truth, if Maul never died, and dooku was used by the sith as a tool, then I'm all for that. Darth Maul rulled and got screwed in the end.

The Weak Deserve Their Fate!

Darth-Razik

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 5:14 PM

Great blog,

Dooku is like Quigon in a way, both in that grey area, just leaning to a different path (dark-light)
Their deffying views are what place them there,

I think he could have been just a fallen jedi with an orange or yellow saber, it would have made a real twist on things, I do like him more as a sith, it shows just where he stands as far
as jedi and politics go - although i didnt portray him as a sith until he pretty much revealed it

	Darth-Razik
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 5:14 PM It was when i saw him with sidious i knew he was pretty serious, but durring ep3 when sidious tells him to kill him, it put me in the position your in now, he just wanted to put things his way, no thoughts of galactic dominance or republic peace Just Dookus Galaxy --> cant wait to watch them all numerous times!

	jedimaster13109 Meditations of a Star Wars Fan
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 5:23 PM I like your ideas Rive it indeed would make for a great character. The Character of Tyranus begins two very important themes in the Saga. 1. Jedi can betray the Order 2. Sith can betray other Sith Interesting he is a man of betrayal.

Darth Kevinmhk

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 7:12 PM

1) From GL's point of view, every bad Force User in Movie
must be a Sith

2) Rive you know Dooku at first wanted to seek out the Dark
Lord himself and slay him? It's Sidious' twisted lies that
pull him to the Sith

3) In ROTS, Dooku still believed he is building a better world
by serving Sidious. Dooku serve the Sith not to revenge for the
Sith (Maul and Sidious wanted revenge), Dooku truly believe
that under his and Sidious' rule, Republic will be transformed
to a better government (Labyrinth of Evil + ROTS Novel)

philstar22
Rebel Empress

date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 7:23 PM

To me, apart from Palpatine, he would have been just a fallen jedi. He, like Anakin, still had good in him and was doing the wrong thing because he thought he was doing right. He and Anakin are a lot alike in that respect. However, Palpatine would never have just let him remain that way. He was needed. Even apart from the whole war thing, he needed a catalist for Anakin turning.

	Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
date Posted: Oct 23, 2005 7:32 PM Darth Kevinmhk 1) Perhaps, but that depends on what you mean by "bad" Force User, if you simply mean "Non-Jedi" fine. Otherwise the whole point of this was that he'd be neutral. 2 and 3) Good points but as I said above this is based soley on the film.

JankyJamaican

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 3:58 AM

Even though he has some characteristics that could make one think he's a true Sith (doesn't care for others unless they are somehow useful for him etc.), I like to think of him as an aristocrat as Matt Stover described it in the novel: always concerned about his position, about being superior to others, thinking he was responsible for changing the galaxy so that it comes up to his expectations

obigynkinobi

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 3:34 PM

You know what would have really made the episodes 1-3 cool? If they had been written totally different! There needed to be hardcore violence against real people (like when the rebels are almost wipped on Hoth, or when Biggs gets wasted in New Hope). The main problem with the 1-3 was not Dooku, or little Ani, it was the fact that no one cared when Droids or Clones got blasted. The total lack of real human casualties (not counting the jedi) made the battles have a lot less weight, in fact almost none.

	obigynkinobi
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 3:34 PM Now there were real' people' fighting the droids on Naboo, but they were dressed like tools and they were never introduced what so ever. If they had at least breifly introduced someone like Dax (Luke's gunner in EP V) and then killed them off maybe people would have cared a tad more about the movies.

Grand Admiral Veers0

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 3:43 PM

Now, obigynkinobi, either you must be completely insensitive or I am overly sensitive. I always considered the clones human and I hated it when I watched them die. Why? Because they were fighting for the Light Side. As soon as they started killing Jedi I cheered when they were cut down.
Back on topic, Dooku was always ambiguous as a force-user. He never had glowing yellow eyes but he could order the killing of Jedi (and civilians) with no hesitation. I consider him to be a combination of Jedi and Sith, the consumate warrior which is why he is so dangerous

	shatterpoint282 ''This Party's Over ''
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 3:47 PM Jedi abba : Thanks , was just curious , lol . I just picked shatterpoint cuz I love that book and 282 cuz its really easy 4 me 2 remember .

	darth superious
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 4:08 PM I think Dooku was an idealist and a rebel, but he did have some arrogance issues. Was he hardcore Sith like Sidious or Maul? No, I don't think so. He was a revolutionary and wanted change but got caught up in Sidious' twisted plans and eventually got suckered by him, perhaps played the same way Anakin was but to a slightly different tune so to speak.

	hailfire551 Running, cooking, and Star Wars
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 4:33 PM "I was hired by a man called Tyranus"-fett to kenobi

	darthvolgen
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 4:36 PM doing this woulder have aeffect on the hole starwars serise aniken would not have lost his arm to dooku and so he wold have one arm left just saying that anikens master had not cut all four of his limvs off in episode 3 instead of just 3 like what happend this would mean that darth vader could use force lightning witch make him egaul in power as the empeir

	obiwan122586 The Alternatives to Fighting
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 4:40 PM I really do like your idea, Rive. I suppose the only real reason for making Dooku a Sith was to maintain the rule of two. Perhaps this could work if we hadn't killed off Maul in Episode I, but saved him for Anakin (or Vader, by then, I suppose) to eliminate.

Rive Caedo
Rive's Uncharted Settlements

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 4:44 PM

hailfire551: I'm not sure I follow you. That line was mostly to benefit the audience so we would know how Jango fit into the mix but preventing Obi-Wan from ever discovering that the Sith were behind everything. It could have easily been shifted to some other scene with Jango alone remarking to Boba or himself something along the lines of "Dooku's not paying me enough for this". Allowing the audience the same info.

darthvolgen: An interesting thought! But I accounted for this in the orginal entry: "Dooku using distinctly Sith Lightning could be confusing, so either this would be changed into a very powerful Force Push disabling Anakin in the same fashion" so things in that battle would be the same.

	darth superious
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 5:02 PM I would have just kept Maul alive! I like Chris Lee though, he's awesome, but Dooku was a uneccessary complication really. His character was interesting and had potential, but it was never fully realized on screen.

	Darth Vadoor3
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 5:08 PM I think that Darth Tyranus was an insult to the sith i mean seriously. Anakin's hand should have been cut off by that machine in the Geonosis factory instead of fighting Count Dooku and Maul would have done so much more!

	Commando Fi
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 5:14 PM You guys are talking about Maul living but he couldn't. His death was the main reason that Obi-Wan was granted the rank of Knight. Anyways, Count Dooku wasn't a real sith. Sidious just taught him enough of the force that he could use dark side powers. I consider him as more of a Dark Jedi than a Sith.

	jedimastermark5592
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 5:46 PM all u guys are right. Dooku was a sith in the sense that he could do sith lightning and had a sith crystal in his lightsaber. But, he wasn't completly evil because if u look at his facial expressions in Episode III before Anakin kills him he looks scared of dying and i thought sith were oure evil would like to die. please tell me if im completely wrong.

	darth purple7 Where did Kenobi go?
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 5:52 PM I consider him as more of a Dark Jedi than a Sith. Commando Fi, I strongly agree w/ you but I also disagree w/ you. He was a Dark Jedi in AOTC, but he was a Sith in ROTS. So you're right and wrong, in my opinion.

	boomer456
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 5:54 PM You know I kind of agree with you but if you look at the expnded universe most fallen Jedi become a Sith or a Dark Jedi look that up! + Lucas believes in only three saber colors red, blue, green the only reason Mace has purple is because Sam Jackson begged Lucas to give him a purple one. Sorry cool idea though.

	RC-1207 'Sev'
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:05 PM He's....... "1% evil, 99% hot gas" He's just some old guy that thinks he's bad. Also, it's not sith lightning, sith just use it the most. Force lightning isn't evil in itself. Kyle Katarn used his lightning and wasn't an evil sith dude.

	Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:06 PM boomer456: That's what would have made a fallen Jedi that doesn't turn to the Dark Side so unique While true that even in the arena battle we only see greens and blues. Windu, as you said, opened the door to unique characters having unique colors. The only "Grey Jedi" with the only curved hilt would have certainly been unique

Rive Caedo
Rive's Uncharted Settlements

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:11 PM

RC-1207 'Sev' - I completely agree, however this idea was made with soley the films in mind. Only a small percentage of moviegoers would be able to discern such obscure aspects of the Star Wars universe without large exposition to explain it. Thus you'd get Joe Schlobotnik wondering what's going on. It would have been a nice nod to Expanded Universe fans though if they had somehow kept the lightning in and explained "It's not the force power, it's how you use it" seemlessly. Personally I feel a "Grey Jedi" would be more likely to use a strong Force Push though.

ObiWan796

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:13 PM

I consider him as more of a Dark Jedi than a Sith.

i believe that too. he never really did anything because he hated the jedi. he did it for the republic, trying to change it to be better. i would have liked it better with dooku as an idealist rather a sith. he just isn't the type for that.

*not related to this blog* i would really like to see dooku as a jedi and all the things he did that made him so great.

mytuk03
The Balance of the Force

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:15 PM

Im glad someone has finally said this, because to me he is a, well no better way to put this, crappy Sith Lord, but he is the perfect idealist. I personally don't like Dooku's character, but that is Dooku the Sith, if he were not it changes my view of him, nad I can enjoy his character that much more. I just think that he should have been his own idealist, and I personally think it would have been better if Darth Maul had never died. Then it's not necessary for Dooku to be a Sith because there already is one. To me Maul dies way too soon, I mean he was the face of the rebirth of Star Wars, and then died before he even started. (cont)

mytuk03
The Balance of the Force

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:15 PM

He could have been as popular as Vader, though never as good to me, though there are many that think he is better. If they both were included, Maul and Dooku, I don't know how the lightsabers fights would still play out, but I'm not sure they would center around Dooku cause though he is an idealist, he is not a murderer, so why would he want to just kill jedi. So the fights would probably still revolve around Maul, which in my mind would have made them better, and would make Palpatine, the only one who uses Force Lightning. I just think Maul fighting Yoda, and being Killed by Anakin, would be much better, and would show the audience just how powerful Palps thinks Anakin is if he was willing to sacrafice Maul, to train Anakin

Master Asmodeus

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:29 PM

Interesting stuff. I think Dooku needed to take the title of a Sith Lord, even if he himself didn't truly have the ideals of the Sith. It was my interpretation that Dooku became disatisfied with the Jedi Order and the Republic and left, using his family wealth to organise the Sepratist movement. Such wealth would also allow him to discover that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, so Dooku allied himself with Palpatine to try and destroy the Sith from the inside, and unite the galaxy under his political ideals. Not truly evil, but as Yoda said "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

	Makabe
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:30 PM Sidiou's previous apprentices are meant to mirror what happens to Anakin. Greivous, like Vader, was part man, part machine. Dooku was a Jedi turned Sith.

Darth Gehena

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 6:31 PM

For anyone who thought Dooku was trying to kill Sidious for the betterment of the Republic by asking Obi-wan for help, PLEASE think again. GL himself stated that the only reason Dooku asked Obi-wan for help on Geonosis was to tell Obi-wan the truth about the Sith, KNOWING that Obi-wan and the Jedi WON'T BELIEVE IT!!! That in turn was to make Dooku look like the crusader some of you think he was and LESS LIKE A SITH!!! When he blasted the lightning, Dooku said, "As you see, my Jedi powers are far beyond yours." JEDI POWERS!!! He wrote off the lightning as JEDI POWERS!!! Also, PLEASE check out the databank, which makes reference to how the Jedi were UNAWARE THAT DOOKU HAS JOINED THE SITH!!!

Darth_Revor

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 7:41 PM

Dooku, or Tyranus, had only one purpose to Darth Sidious. When he joined the Sith, I doubt he truly believed (or understood) the Sith ideals. But, like all Sith, he was ambitious for power in the Force. Side note: I believe ambition/greed are the inherent failure in the Sith. They all want power, and will destroy even each other for it. In title alone was Dooku a Sith, although his pride supported that he was otherwise. He believed Sidious and he would work together to restructure the Republic.

The fear and surprise in his eyes at Anakin's moment of victory over him came because Dooku believed Palpatine would intervene. He had planned with Palp/Sidious that they would convert Anakin to join them, not replace HIM. (see the ROTS novel)

Darth_Revor

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 7:49 PM

Why Dooku/Tyranus as a Sith?
To answer that, you have to look at the BIG picture. Dooku was never meant to replace Maul. Infact, Maul was never meant to lead Order 66. Every apprentice Sidious used had a specific purpose. Maul executed the initial preparations for the Revenge, and Anakin was the Jedi purge. Dooku, however, was the middle man. He was wealthy, and he was radical thinker in many ways as well as a shrewd leader. Sidious converted Dooku to Tyranus as the means to an end. The end he was meant to serve: the Clone Wars. Sidious used him as a rallying point and a control over the CIS so he could execute the Clone Wars as he saw fit.

	Darthflaga
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 7:54 PM When Anakin deafeated Dooku. Ob1 stated in EpIII that Anakin as the chosen one deafeated the sith lord, he was refering to Dooku. So the jedi were aware that Dooku had joined the sith.

Rive Caedo
Rive's Uncharted Settlements

date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 8:04 PM

Darth_Revor - (In responce to 2nd comment) - Oh doubtless on all counts. Maul not being fit for being a war leader. Dooku being needed for a rallying point. The question is why would Dooku not serve the same purpose as a "Grey jedi"? In fact it seemingly would be more benefitial to Palpatine as a true idealist Dooku would be more inclinded to run the war to its conclusion for the purpose of reforming the Jedi Order and Republic without the danger of Sith betrayal and losing his care for the fate of the Republic. Caring more for his self as a Sith would.

	Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
date Posted: Oct 24, 2005 8:10 PM A huge thank you to all who commented. Due to this being the 50 limit cap any additonal comments and discussion can be directed here.

Please log in to post comments