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That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date posted: Aug 16, 2006 11:58 AM
"Good is a point of view Anakin..."
Tonight the Dark Lord reveals the differences between Sith and Jedi.

First of all let me apologize for any hard feelings concerning the blog I wrote earlier. I hope you do not stop reading my blogs and deny yourself knowledge (I'm not trying to be cocky) simply because of the comments I made. What I meant was that in addition to what is commonly written on the blogs, we should also focus on writing theories. I also did not mean to criticize any blogs, nor did I mean to say that EVERY blog has been bad. Anyway... today's topic is about the philosophy and the differences between the Sith and the Jedi. It is a topic that touches me personally and one which has always fascinated me. I hope you will learn something from this blog and enjoy it as I have enjoyed writing it.

PALPATINE: "Good is a point of view, Anakin. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every aspect... including their quest for greater power."

ANAKIN: "The Sith rely on their passion for their strength. They think inward, only about themselves."

PALPATINE: And the Jedi don't?

ANAKIN: The Jedi are selfless . . . they only care about others.

PALPATINE smiles.


The above conversation is, in my opinion, one of my favorite Star Wars conversations of all time. It is fascinating because of the fact that it is the only time in any of the six episodes that we have a Jedi speaking to a Sith about their philosophies. Both seem to be trying to persuade the other, which of course Anakin is blind to. Besides that, it is also fascinating because we get a good view from both sides at the same time.

The Jedi: The Jedi are an ancient order, which started at an unknown date much before the Sith Order was created. These people discovered the Force and realized that it can be controlled. Through study they became more powerful and began to do more and more. Armed with their knowledge of this power and melee weapons, they decided because they had an advantage over the average human, they would only use their power for good... but not all agreed.

The Sith: The Sith are an ancient order, based on a long-extinct species, that was started thousands upon thousands of years ago. They were a group of Jedi who have different beliefs than others in the order and were either kicked out or left by choice. They adapted an ancient species philosophy of greed, jealousy, and lust for power, which in turn made them evil and sinister.

The two groups inevitably became enemies, as the Jedi served to help the people and the Sith sought to do harm and take advantage of the people. Although it is unclear who struck first, the two orders clashed and became enemies ever since.

But the question now is, was Palpatine right when he said that they are similar in almost every aspect? As a Sith Philosopher, my opinion is yes they are very similar. What I love about that conversation is that Anakin simply states the only difference between the two groups; "the Jedi are selfless . . . they only care about others." That is truly the only difference between the two groups because evil can be construed according to one's point of view.

For example, when Anakin helped Sidious destroy the Republic and slaughter thousands of Jedi, children, innocent civilians, and friends he was not doing evil according to his logic of thinking. By doing all of that, he was becoming more powerful to help save Padme, which he felt was a good deed.

The second part of this blog is the question was Anakin really evil and was he a Sith. Now taking the information we know about the differences between Jedi and Sith, the difference being that Jedi use their power for good and Sith for themselves, it would appear that what Anakin did was not necessarily a Sith (especially if you take the Jedi philosophy that an individuals life is worth as much as the general welfare that I'm not going to get into because it will spark a big debate that we can have in another blog). But that is incorrect; he is a Sith and the reason is that he doesn't want to save Padme just because he wants to be a good person- he wants to save her because its what he wants. Listen to some of these quotes stated by him during the film:

I won't loose you Padme... not the way I lost my mother.
I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda.
I can't live without her.
And I don't have time to look it up now, but in Episode II he does state something about not being able to live without her.

From these quotes it is pretty clear that Anakin is not only saving Padme for her sake, but also for his. Therefore, his evil actions are no longer purely for the purpose of saving someone else, which classifies him as a true Sith.

Summary:

Jedi and Sith both use the Force, carry similar weapons, have ancient doctrines, formed from the same group of people, and most importantly, both try to rule the galaxy and strive for "greater power." So basically the only difference between the two Orders is the fact that the Sith use their power to help themselves, whereas the Jedi use it to help others.

And if you do not believe that Jedi strive for greater power let me show you some of these quotes and facts to change your mind:

The Jedi have a huge say in what goes on in the Republic and pretty much do what they want because they think their way is always correct (I can think of countless examples, but this blog is already too long so I'll save it for another time).
Mace: "The Jedi would have to take control of the Senate in order to maintain a peaceful transition."


P.S. I wrote this last night and edited it this morning so if anything says tonight (referring to this blog) it probably meant today.

  Qui-Tom Servo loves Padme
You Must Unlearn What You Have Learned
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 12:09 PM
While they have similar abilities, the difference lies in how they use those abilities. Palpatine wanted power for himself. And after Mace noted that the Jedi would have to take over the Senate, Yoda immediately expressed concern that this would lead them to a dark and dangerous place. He did not want to go there because it ran counter to what a Jedi should do. And while saving Padme may be a noble desire, undertaking evil deeds to save her nullifies the nobility of said desire. Padme herself even felt as much. She was horrified at what Anakin had done and was going to leave him when Obi-Wan showed up. I believe that it was Obi-Wan who saved Padme's life. I don't think Anakin would have let her go.
  Shadow_JediX
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 12:28 PM
in episode II anakin said "i know i am disobeying my mandate to protect you, but i have to go, i'm sorry" (talking about his mother) then in episode III he then again chooses another person over padme' when he chokes her

in the end was it really for padme?
  Master Nephilin
Contemplations of a Jedi
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 12:28 PM
"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I agree with you SithLord0017. It would have been fascinating to be able to fast-forward that talk in ROTS and put it in ROTJ, having Palpatine and Obi-wan converse.
  stormraiderjedidragon
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 12:35 PM
The worst of things can come out of the best of intentions. Even then, Anakin didn't really have the best of intentions anyway, at least not closer to the end. Also, evil doesn't always know that what it is doing is evil and therefore might think they're not even though in truth, they are.
  SithLord0017
That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 12:56 PM
Qui-Tom Servo loves Padme- exactly. My point about the Jedi is that they want to influence politics. Even though they try to get greater powwer and use it for good, they are still power-hungry (except thier reasons are good and pure).

Shadow_JediX and stormraiderjedidragon- Thank you for your comments. Shadow_JediX, I'm not really sure I understand what your saying , but as far as your question, I beleive that in the end it was a mixture of him trying to save her for herself and himself, but mostly for himself (my apologies if this is bad grammar, but I am in a rush).
  SithLord0017
That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 12:57 PM
Master Nephilin- Thank you for your comment. I was hoping someone was going to put that quote in there from Obi-wan. I was going to put it in, but completely forgot until now so thanks for bringing that point up. And yes that would be very cool to play those conversations side by side. I guess that is a huge advantage to having Episode III on DVD now. It's always cool and good to play III and any other episode in back to back to see about any cool references such as this. I'd like to see someone take both scenes and edit them into one small 5 minute movie to play on the computer (in like Windows Media Player). Thanks again for the comment.
  Master Nephilin
Contemplations of a Jedi
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 1:00 PM
That reminds me of probably the only selfless thing Anakin ever said, "I once had as a Jedi and came back and freed all the slaves." (PTM). And who knows, he may have already had an ego back then.
  Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 1:07 PM
Here is the definition of power in the Star Wars universe:

A young man stands between his father lying on the ground barely alive and a someone who can issue lightning from his fingertips. The young man has the ability to save himself and his dying father. He has only to has to choose to side with the Emperor - to side with power and the powerful. Instead, he 'lets it all go' - the desire for revenge, the fear of loss, and the craving for 'power'.

Luke lets it all go in a single phrase: I AM A JEDI, LIKE MY FATHER BEFORE ME.

If that doesn't define power and the true code of the Jedi, I don't know what does.

  Master Nephilin
Contemplations of a Jedi
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 1:08 PM
Sorry, I meant, "I once had a dream as a Jedi and came back and freed all the slaves."
  SithLord0017
That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 1:18 PM
Kenobi-fan- if you think that is the true definition of power than you will love a blog I am writing later in the week about power and which 3 people were the most powerful people in the SW Universe ever.

Master Nephilin- Nice reference. Thanks for the comments.
  jedivnsnator
The Trash Compactor
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 3:13 PM
Hmm...I might have to post a blog from a different point of view, for the sake of a little objectivity. ;)
  poke-star
Star Wars and my life
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 3:52 PM
The Jedi, in my opinion, don't want power, they want peace. Because the Jedi would have to have taken over the Senate because they wanted peace. Darth Vader killed the Jedi, Padme, and Obi-Wan because he wanted power but in ROTJ he killed Palpatine because he wanted peace and to save his son, through love he was key player in ending the Galactic Empire and because he was thinking on the ground and gathering up his energy, I believe it was the same battle that happened 23 years earlier in the Chancellor's office when he was put into the body and Darth Vader rose. This definately happened because he tried to jump in with his (x)-master.
So, that is my opinion.
  SithLord0017
That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 4:01 PM
poke-star- Your correct in saying the Jedi want peace, but your wrong on several other points. Yes, the Jedi want peace, but they need power (which they have as they interfer with the Republic). The Sith also want more power and just like the Jedi want peace.

The Jedi seek peaceful ways to acheive peace, while the Sith feel the only way to achieve peace is by causing war, winning that war, establishing peace, and then crushing resistance. Both sides want power to create peace, but for different reasons (Jedi to make people free and equal and the Sith to make peace so they have people and an empire to rule).
  Marvolo7
Marvolo's Misanthropic Musings
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 11:32 PM
I disagree on several points, but my main objection is inspired by K-fan's comment.

The Jedi do not want power for themselves. They seek to follow the will of the force, which requires them to be completely selfless, and submit completely to the will of the force. Anakin's definition of what it is to be a Jedi is flawed. Jedi do not seek to elevate themselves to the status of benevolent gods, dictators, or even leaders of the Republic. They are servants to the will of the force.
  Marvolo7
Marvolo's Misanthropic Musings
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 11:32 PM
When Luke tossed away his lightsaber in RotJ, he was giving himself over to fate, and letting the will of the force decide what was to become of him. That is what it means to be a Jedi. It's not in any way a quest for power in order to do good. It is simply upholding an ideal.

Now, in practice, this does not always happen. Jedi can be misguided, or misinterpret the will of the force. But the point remains -- Anakin oversimplified Jedi and Sith, which is exactly what's going on in this blog. The Jedi are selfless in the sense that they serve the will of the force, not because they "care about others."
  Marvolo7
Marvolo's Misanthropic Musings
date Posted: Aug 16, 2006 11:33 PM
The Sith seek to elevate themselves by defying the will of the force. The mere existence of the Sith disrupts the balance of the force. Thus, in serving the will of the force, the Jedi must destroy the Sith. Removing Palpatine from office is not a power-grab on the part of the Jedi, but a means of removing a Sith, and serving the will of the force. Notice how the Jedi do not even contemplate doing so until they are certain that Palpatine is, in fact, a Sith. As for the Jedi taking control of the Senate, this idea is definitely not the Jedi way, and we can tell that Yoda doesn't like it one bit.
  SithLord0017
That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date Posted: Aug 17, 2006 12:34 PM
Marvolo7- I like the last comment about the Sith disrupting the balance of the Force by being in existence in the first place. Not a bad theory... anyway I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I'm saying the Jedi want power so they can do the will of the Force (which is also what you stated).
  Fish1941
date Posted: Jan 05, 2007 9:02 AM
"the Jedi are selfless . . . they only care about others." That is truly the only difference between the two groups because evil can be construed according to one's point of view.

I believe that the Jedi were no more selfless than the Sith. In fact, I would go on and say that the Jedi's self-perception of their selflessness and goodness was nothing more than an illusion.
  Fish1941
date Posted: Jan 05, 2007 9:04 AM
That reminds me of probably the only selfless thing Anakin ever said, "I once had as a Jedi and came back and freed all the slaves." (PTM). And who knows, he may have already had an ego back then.

Master Nephilin, all of them - the Jedi, the Sith, Anakin, Padme - had egos. Anakin was just more open about it than the others.
  Fish1941
date Posted: Jan 05, 2007 9:06 AM
From these quotes it is pretty clear that Anakin is not only saving Padme for her sake, but also for his. Therefore, his evil actions are no longer purely for the purpose of saving someone else, which classifies him as a true Sith.

Then the Jedi - including Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace - were no different from Anakin. Many of their actions in the PT were centered on their desire to maintain the Jedi Order and the Order's status-quo within the Republic.

In the PT, Anakin's character - both the good and bad - was a representation of all the other major characters.
  SithLord0017
That's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time.
date Posted: Jan 05, 2007 2:00 PM
I don't understand what point your trying to make. I don't see you backing anything up. Can u explain more?
  Fish1941
date Posted: Jan 08, 2007 9:08 AM
Looking at the characters and their actions in the PT, they seem no different than Anakin. Other characters share Anakin's potential for both the goodness and darkness. Anakin's downfall in ROTS represents to me the downfall of the other main characters.

I also think that the Jedi believed they were selfless. But if you would notice some of their words and actions, it seemed as if many of their decisions revolved around maintaining the status-quo of the Jedi Order. I don't believe that selflessness exists. I believe that it is a myth that humans have created in order for them to believe in some non-existent capability of achieving some level of perfection.
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