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 | More clones. More clones. More clones. |
I've been following Blue Leader 46's "Why I hate clones" blogs, and I wanted to post a rebuttal. I really do think there is way too much "us versus them" in this world. And, it would appear that is drifting over to the GFFA. It is my point that the clones were fully human and tragically exploited.
I'll fall back on that which I know and am well versed in. Dog breeding. We have all varieties of dogs, all from the same wolf genetics. A German Shepherd Dog and a Maltese terrier are very different dogs. They were bred for different purposes, but their genome is virtually identical. Many German Shepherds naturally herd things together (children, sheep, ducks), but if the dog doesn't herd, and its parents were both GSD, it's still a GSD. Even more to the point, it is still a dog.
Now, if I came forward and said that a Maltese terrier is not a dog because it doesn't look like or act like my German Shepherd, who looks more like a wolf, would I be right or wrong? Clearly wrong. They are different breeds, different animals, different individuals.
Now, lets bring humans into the equation. I have several friends who are identical twins. Same genetic code, very different people. Are they any less individuals because there is an exact genetic copy of them running around? No because each one has his own individual memories and experiences that shaped who they are today.
Now bring the two together. Even if I have modified a Mandalorian template to be more docile, the offspring is still fully human. Why? Because I'm certain there are other naturally bred individuals out there that are still more docile. Is there a point at which your German Shepherd is too docile to be deemed a German Shepherd? Too docile to be a dog? Again, clearly not. The clones are fully human, fully individuals, shaped by their training to act as soldiers, but fully self-aware and fully capable of independent decision making.
Does that make the clones evil? No. They end up being the tool of evil, but they are doing what they have been trained to do. Any military force drills its soldiers so that they will know how to react in any number of anticipated situations. The key is that when the going gets really bad, they have training that says "this is what you do" hard wired into their brain. They don't sit and think about it. They slot the enemy before the enemy slots them. The clones have been trained since they were decanted to follow orders and obey the chain of command.
What then of Order 66? The clones turned on their commanding officers and killed them without malice? Well, I hope that most soldiers kill without malice. They should be professionals about it. I sincerely hope that slotting the enemy doesn't give a soldier happy warm feelings. However, when a direct order is given and it doesn't violate any rules of engagement, they should do it. It's not like Palpatine ordered the clones to mow down a bunch of women and children. These were battle-hardened Jedi. The Jedi, even such a small number, were very dangerous and capable of amazing feats. The clones were told that the Jedi were enemies of the Republic, and they believed their CO. It is not like they were ordered to round up the Jedi and torture them. Taking out an enemy of the state is a pretty clear-cut command.
Things are not always as they seem. The clones were relying on the judgement of the chain of command above them to make the correct decision, the moral decision. They were doing their part to protect a Republic in which they had no stake. That is the real tragedy of the Clone Wars. The clones were heroes who worked hard and gave their lives for a way of life they could never enjoy. Whether they were borne of a woman or from a flask matters not. What matters is that they were brave in the face of horrific odds.
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http://blogs.starwars.com/solsticedawn/3 |

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Tode Kan Its A White Man
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 12:55 PM
I've been following along too. that's why I had to subscribe to Hyperspace last night. CIS still felt that clones aren't human, but like solsticedawn says they are. In the Rise of Dart Vader book there is proof that not all of the clones killed there Jedi Generals. It starts off with three Jedi on Murkhana fighting alonside the clones. Clone Commander Climber is in charge of Ion Team and is given order 66
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Tode Kan Its A White Man
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 12:59 PM
He decides to surround the Jedi short of a rendevous point and give them a chance to flee, he doesn't shoot them, Thus he made a just decision to him to nit kill the Jedi. Lord Vader comes to the planet with Commander Appo of the 501st to make an example of Climber and his team. Which he does and tells all of the clones that they are to follow orders, or else. Thus they didn't have a choice. This is also the time when clone cross over to Stormtroopers, the book says this also. That way the stormtroopers were even more fearsome. Vader already drove it in them to strictly follow orders and why they are feared afterwards.
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Tode Kan Its A White Man
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 1:03 PM
The reason why the clones killed their Jedi Generals was b/c they are under command of the Republic not the Jedi. The Jedi did make a move against the Chanceler and so the contingency order 66 was put into play. Since being such good soldiers they had now been informed that the Jedi are traders and must be delt with. Since being very good soldiers, aand now knowing they had another enemy, they delt with the situation right away.
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Tode Kan Its A White Man
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 1:08 PM
Form a tactical point-of-view the clones had the advantage, over secure channels they were told to kill the traders. Rather than wait until the battle is over the clones had the element of surprise and killed the Jedi right away.
From the clone point of view they did the right thing, even though they did kill lots of Jedi they did the right thing.
Even Obi-Wan told Luke his father was dead even though he was alive and being called Darth Vader. So from that point-of-view Ob-Wan was right.
Go Empire, Suck It Rebellion
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Rive Caedo Rive's Uncharted Settlements
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 1:24 PM
Even if I have modified a Mandalorian template to be more docile, the offspring is still fully human. Why? Because I'm certain there are other naturally bred individuals out there that are still more docile. Is there a point at which your German Shepherd is too docile to be deemed a German Shepherd? Too docile to be a dog? Again, clearly not.
Best summary I've seen in a good long while 
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jedimasterninks
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 2:08 PM
I agree, solsticedawn
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Jediknigt200555 Mereel's Log
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 5:24 PM
Another point Karen Traviss brought up in this blog is very ineteresting and Order 66 was probably drilled into the clones so they would react instantly, without thought.
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Tripleguess
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 8:01 PM
And precious little thanks they got for it.  No Adopt-A-Clone programs, nothing!
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Wampa_Jedi Jedi Wampa's Playhouse
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 8:57 PM
Tode Kan, I think they were told to kill the traitors, not the traders, otherwise Watto would have been running for his life!
Just messin' with ya. Far be it from me to correct someone's spelling...
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Tode Kan Its A White Man
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 10:56 PM
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
dude i've been reading these blogs for 3 years and it was'nt until recently that i signed up, believe me i've seen worse misspelling than trader for traitors, give me break gosh
ya know
i thought we could of been friends
we could of gone of and ruled the galaxy
but no
you had to correct my spelling
i'm done
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Tode Kan Its A White Man
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date Posted: Mar 18, 2006 10:58 PM
i just noticed that instead of using off i used of
geez
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Blue leader46 The CIS Shadowfeed Department
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 1:56 AM
I think the only reason people like clones were because they were...the good guys!
(melodramatic music)
What matters is that they were brave in the face of horrific odds.
There is a difference between bravery and following orders. And anyway, would you say that when the clones were in the service of the Empire, slaughtering populations?
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solsticedawn His men will follow him anywhere, ner vod. But only out of a sense of curiosity.
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 4:03 AM
Any one with common sense would know that a battle situation is dangerous. Bravery is doing what you are ordered even though you may have to pay the ultimate price.
Many of the men that stormed the beaches at Normandy were following orders. I'm quite certain they knew what was waiting for them on the beach. They also had the conviction that what they were doing was worth it in the grand scheme. There is no denying they were brave, even though they were following orders.
continued
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solsticedawn His men will follow him anywhere, ner vod. But only out of a sense of curiosity.
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 4:08 AM
Once they became stormtroopers and the enforcement end of an opressive regime; I don't know. The fact still remains that their choices were limited. If they chose to desert, they were up against the fact that they had the most recognisable face in the galaxy. The other thing is that dictators don't take away rights in one fell swoop generally, they erode them slowly. Then when it's all done, people look back and say "We should have seen that coming!"
I don't know how long it took before the more brutal aspects of the Empire started to crop up. Is there any EU fiction currently in the Episode III to IV timeframe apart from LOTJ? Until I do, I reserve judgement on the clones for storm trooper actions.
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Darth Vadere The View of the Vu'traat Tay'haai
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 4:14 AM
That is the real tragedy of the Clone Wars.
Tragedy is an appropriate term to describe the plight of the clone trooper. These men never volunteered for military service, they were born into it. While merely children, they trained to kill, and watched brothers fall before the enemy ever fired its first shot. They served under the leadership of Jedi who had never been trained as military strategists, and initially suffered terrible losses due to their command chain's tactical inexperience. As the war continued, clone troopers continued to give up their abbreviated lives on behalf of a Republic they never really knew, and would never truly be a part of.
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Darth Vadere The View of the Vu'traat Tay'haai
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 4:15 AM
Who can fault them for closing ranks around each other, or for pursuing knowledge concerning their Mandalorian heritage? Every man needs to live for something other than dying. Who can fault them for obeying orders? It's what they'd trained to do since birth. So, while I hate to see them used as pawns to bring down the Republi, they were hardly the only ones being "played" by Palpatine.
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Jexxel34
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:11 AM
I love how the just following orders defense gets used here. Since the term is famous as the defense used by the Nazi officers during the holocaust trials. In that trial they found that this is not a defense for your actions. As human beings you have a responsibility to disobey orders that are morally wrong. And the clones did kill women and younglings. I really don't think the little kids in the temple where posing a threat to the Emperor. Those actions alone in my opinion condem the clones.
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Jexxel34
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:20 AM
And I'm sorry clones are not human. The Kimino altered their genetic make up to make them more docile and less able to think independently. This is completely different from breeding animals to inhance their natural docile traits. Even La Masu admits this when talking to Obi-wan about Jango Fett. When she says he wanted an unaltered clone "pure genetic replication." To put it another way if they change their genetic structure for the clones to have four arms are they still human? The ability to think for one self is one of the key features of being human.
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solsticedawn His men will follow him anywhere, ner vod. But only out of a sense of curiosity.
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:35 AM
Selective breeding is the exact same thing as genetic manipulation. To say that someone is not human because they have been genetically manipulated is to say that someone is not human because they have been selectively bred. Neither is particularly appealing to me, but there is no difference.
Animal breeders do this all the time. Dairy cows have been bred for generations to produce more milk. Meat cattle likewise have been bred to produce more meat. Are these animals any less "cow" than their great-great-grandparents? No, they are not. They are different, but the difference does not take away from their basic "cowness".
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solsticedawn His men will follow him anywhere, ner vod. But only out of a sense of curiosity.
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:44 AM
The clones can think for themselves. Clone commandos, who generally operate in groups of 4, are no different genetically than the clone troopers. The only difference is training. The RC are trained to be more independent. It is no different than separating identical twins at birth and raising one in an enriched artistic environment and the other in an enriched mathematical environment. They will turn out different, but their genes are still the same.
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Jexxel34
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:46 AM
They say they altered their genetic code to make them more docile. They didn't find a docile human templete they took a warrior and then took out particular strans of DNA that makes them independent. And here a food example for you KFC is no longer Kentuckey Fried Chicken because they have altered their "chickens" to be born without beaks and such. The governement said they could not advertise this as chicken because due to the alterations these animals are not chickens.
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Jexxel34
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:49 AM
The clones are breed as remorseless killers. And I know that the books say otherwise but George Lucas included nothing in the movies to suggest otherwise and I always deffer to his vision when it is in conflict with expanded universe. I am an avid fan of the books well up until the new jedi order garbage (but thats another rant). But George Lucas gets to call the shots as the creator of the universe.
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Jexxel34
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 9:52 AM
No you are not less human because you are more docile than Jango but if you were altered by a scientist so you were incapable of being as agressive as Jango you would be. If you start pulling out threads of DNA you cease to be strickley human. This is not to say that this person is anyless deserving of rights afforded to humans but they are not humans.
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Karen Traviss "Cannon to right of them, cannon to left of them...noble Three Million!"
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 10:25 AM
Dawn, psychologists tell us that the way people react to fiction reveals something of their attitudes in the real world towards real people - and, dare I add, real soldiers. Bigotry, stereotyping, and ignorance; or understanding, curiosity and an open mind. Our own fears and anxieties; or our own courage, hope and confidence. We project onto fictional characters what's inside us, and as a writer I've always watched that very human tendency with interest.
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Darth Vadere The View of the Vu'traat Tay'haai
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 1:33 PM
Indeed KT. When we fail to realize our own potential for evil, and attribute it only to those we consider totally unlike ourselves, we're on a very, very slippery slope.
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Darth Vadere The View of the Vu'traat Tay'haai
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 2:06 PM
I love how the just following orders defense gets used here. Since the term is famous as the defense used by the Nazi officers during the holocaust trials.
If you are comparing Order 66 to Nazi wartime atrocities against civilians, your analogy is inherently flawed Jexxel. The Jedi were combatants, and arguably the most deadly of all warriors on the battlefield.
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Darth Vadere The View of the Vu'traat Tay'haai
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date Posted: Mar 19, 2006 2:14 PM
As human beings you have a responsibility to disobey orders that are morally wrong.
How could the clones (which you say aren't human beings anyway) have known that Palpatine was using them? He was the GAR Commander-in-Chief, and up until the time of their demise, even the Jedi recognized his authority. Should we expect the clone army to discern what the Jedi could not? Should we also hold the Jedi morally responsible for all of the collateral civilian casualties of the war because they failed to recognize that Sidious was using them as well? What about the citizens and legislators who surrendered their freedoms to Palpatine and gave him the authority to become Emperor?
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Blue leader46 The CIS Shadowfeed Department
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date Posted: Mar 20, 2006 8:32 AM
If you are comparing Order 66 to Nazi wartime atrocities against civilians, your analogy is inherently flawed Jexxel. The Jedi were combatants, and arguably the most deadly of all warriors on the battlefield.
So what?
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ywingempress Shroud of the Dark Side
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date Posted: Mar 20, 2006 12:12 PM
So what? You can't argue that it's morally wrong to kill combatants who have rebelled against the government you serve. All the clones knew was the Jedi had tried to take over the Republic - and that's not even Palpy's lie, from a certain point of view, they did: a member of Jedi Council tried to assassinate the Chancellor and a group of Jedi were plotting about how they were going to take over the Senate once the Chancellor was out of the way... (Palpatine didn't even need to lie, he just twisted the truth a bit. The Jedi played right into his hands.)
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ywingempress Shroud of the Dark Side
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date Posted: Mar 20, 2006 12:13 PM
Killing a small group of Jedi - Jedi who were trained in combat since they were young children who could barely stand up - who present a threat to the state cannot be compared in any way to the systematic genocide at the hands of the Nazis.
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