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 | Darth Vader.. Martyr or Just Unfortunate? |
 After reading numerous blogs about the 'resurrection' of Anakin Skywalker at the end of ROTJ, I can't help but see a certain naivety in the romantcism of what is being proposed.
Just consider this..
Luke sees Emperor Palpatine as the Villain and Vader as a misguided victim of his dark master.. O.K..!?!
Now, With Vader knowing this, Isn't it possible that he could have thought that by killing Palpatine and therefore 'rescuing' Luke and the Universe from the Emperors tyranny, that he could persuade Luke to join him in ruling the galaxy as father and son so ultimately get the apprentice he longed for?
Because personally i don't believe that Vader expected to be on the receiving end of the surprised Emperors mis-guided Force Lightning.
So how was Vader to know that he was sacrificing himself?
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http://blogs.starwars.com/swblogs_com_jmp14/1 |
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Sithhunter123
The melodic line of the saga
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 8:41 AM
Sorry but i disagree 100%, if this was true there is no way in which he would have returned as a Jedi Spirit. Also Vader at this point knows how powerful Palpatine is and that the force lighting would screw up his life support system, Vader knows how weak he is and when u watch return of the jedi u can see the conflict going on as Palps is frying luke and how vader is looking at Luke in agony and then back at his master. The other thing is u hear what Anakin says to Luke 'You were right about me'. If Vader's motives had been selfish he wouldnt have returned to the light side
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Darth Rex0
So be it....
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 8:47 AM
Sithhunter123 beat me to it. The line "you were right about me, tell your sister you were right" kinda defeats your proposed theory (in my humble opinion). Also when Luke says "No, I've got to save you", Vader responds with "You already have, Luke". These lines don't sound like someone that was trying to control the universe and use his Son to do that. I'm not sure if Vader knew he would die by killing the Emporer (I think he probably did), but he sure wasn't killing the Emporer so he could rule the Universe at this point.
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JediMasterPickles
Slowly Turning To The Dark Side!
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 10:02 AM
O.K. I must admit the little point of Anakin joining the force and the actual dialogue from EP VI does kick my theory up the cape a bit, and to be fair i'd not watched ROTJ in a while and have been too engrossed in my E.U. books about Vader and Palpatine trying to 'upgrade' their fellow sith. I suppose my judgement was clouded.
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prettypadme999
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 12:03 PM
Vader, deep down inside of him, knew he was gonna die. I mean, he had dreams in his early life that told the future, so why wouldn't he see he was gonna die? At that point, one would say that he got a revelation, and changed from Lord Vader to Anikan Skywalker. I totally agree that he sacraficed himself so that the jedi and his son would live on, even though he wiped, well tried to , out the jedi race.
May the force be with us all.
Master Windew, Revenge of the Sith
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Ki-Adi-Fendi
Ki-Adi-Fendi
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:03 PM
I've always wondered what was going through Vader's mind during Luke's frying (by the emperor). You can see the camera focus on his face (though you cant see whats behind the mask).
Yep, Vader died trying to save Luke. He was definitely Anakin again at the time.
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DarthCannabis0
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:17 PM
Thats right, he wouldn't of been able to become one with the Force and join Obi-Wan, Yoda and even though you don't see him at the end of ROTJ, Qui-Gon. So, he did sacrafice himself. Plus he ticked Padme off enough, he's not going to let her child die! LOL! 
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DarthCannabis0
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:21 PM
Sorry, but also if he wanted the Emporer out, he could have let Luke strike him down. And then proceeded in turning Luke to the Darkside. Which he almost appeared to give into when the Emporer was edging him into striking him down with the lightsaber.
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Renegade0801
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date Posted: Nov 15, 2005 11:47 PM
Not to mention the origional dialogue from the script that was cut from the movie. After Luke removed his mask, Vader/Anakin told him,"I'm proud that you've grown up to be the man that I wanted to be."
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Sithhunter123
The melodic line of the saga
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 2:38 AM
'I'm proud that you've grown up to be the man I wanted to be'! Thats a fantastic line!!!! Why didnt they keep it in. I really wish they had
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Sith Weapon
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:00 AM
In this case, as in many, I recommend reading the book. One HUGE advantage that books usually have over movies is that films are generally unable to convey the thinking of characters, at least in an explicit fashion.
While it is true that Darth Vader actually thought about, and intended to overthrow Emperor Palpatine, there was some conflict in the immediate setting portrayed in that final scene of "Return of the Jedi". Darth Vader was in many ways in thrall to the Emperor. The draw of the Emperor's will is quite strong. Even Luke was ultimately unable to resist, as he fell to the Dark Side in the EU. It took Leia to help him return to the Light Side.
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Darth_Loxsar
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:00 AM
jeez another blogger who has decided to change GL's ending to the saga, people read wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much into things. star wars isnt that complicated, its a romantic-adventure-spaceopera, you dont need to be a f&@#ing genious to watch them. GL has stated 100 times that at the end Vader dies returning to the light side of the force for saving luke and destroying the emperor, therefore destroying the sith(himself, as a sith, included), why would his ghost appear pre-vader suit if he hadnt?
p.s. and i whole heartedly agree with sithhunter 123, that is a great line, especially with the prequels out now, it should have stayed...
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Sith Weapon
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:00 AM
All that said, in the book itself it explains clearly that Darth Vader started to revert to Anakin Skywalker and that THAT was why he turned on the Emperor; not for personal gain of a Sith nature. "Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act--the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will--his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor."
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Sith Weapon
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:01 AM
Earlier on it speaks more to his actual thinking in the matter, but needless to say I am not going to quote an entire section of the book. I will, however, add the following as it underlines this point, quite poetically in fact,
"Vader pulled Luke very close, spoke into his ear. "'Luke, you were right... and you were right about me... Tell your sister... you were right.' With that, he closed his eyes, and Darth Vader--Anakin Skywalker--died."
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magic juan
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 7:48 AM
What Darth Rex and Sithhunter said is correct. I believe that int he book for ROTS, Yoda was told by Qui-Gon that the way to immortality was selflessness and what Vader did by rescuing Luke was a self-less act. Vader knew how weak he was and he had to know that nothing good could've come from picking up Palpatine while he was using the lightning. Yeah, his initial idea when he found out about Luke may have been to rule the Galaxy as Father and son but probably thinking back to the fact that his lust for power is what put him in the position he was in in the first place he probably changed his mind.
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magic juan
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 7:51 AM
Also, Anakin turning to the Dark Side was because of how he felt about those around him, everyone else was power-thirsty and had a strong hatred for someone or something. That is what set him apart from everyone else invovled with the Sith. He did not find joy in hurting other and as you can see him crying on Mustafar in Episode 3 and at the end when he and Palpatine are watching the Death Star construction I think he fold his arms mainly out of frustration because of the situation he was in. All the pain he did after that was more than likely because he felt he had nothing left but Palpatine. You see how his attitude quickly changed once he found out about Luke.
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JAIDEN5
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 9:13 AM
I BELIEVE THAT VADER WANTED TO CHANGE BUT FELT HE WAS HELD BY THE DARK SIDE AND DARTH SIDIOUS HE FELT HE COULD NOT BETRAY HIS MASTER YET HE HAD BETRAYED OBI WON AND NOW HE FELT THAT BY SAVING HIS SON AND LETTING OF HIS ANGER HE WOULD BE REDEEMED AND WOULD BECOME ONE WITH THE FORCE. 
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Jedi Lord Archangel
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 10:02 AM
Yeah, Vader was Anakin at the time he saved Luke. How about this for a theory, Vader stopped Luke from killing the Palpatine to stop Luke from going to the darkside. Vader felt the hate in Luke at that point and stopped him!
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darkmastergonzo
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 10:29 AM
ultimatly, it comes down to one thing.... what GL wants. everyone here needs to remember that even though this is a poetic story of a man who looses his way, and then is found, the way it happened all depended on the one man who litterally dreamed this up. if GL says on his movie, that this is a story about redemption, then by god that's what it's about. no sense in trying to analyze something that the aurthor already conveyed, in person.
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lovelucas
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 10:30 AM
belated recognition - seeing luke in his own position decades earlier - making a different choice in the same circumstance, the choice anakin chould have made - and there IS still good in him and this is his son palaptine is killing. here is someone he loved more than himself. and george has always repeated the crux of the story is redemption and the relationship between father and son
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Kenobi-fan
The Jundland Wastes Journal
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 11:27 AM
I agree with lovelucas. Anakin's reason for becoming a Sith were far different than those before him. He is a Sith because it's what he believes will grant him the abilities he's always sought: the ability to control one's destiny. Anakin suffered greatly for his choices but he remained the key figure in resolving the prophecy to balance the force. It was his destiny to face the same choices he encountered years before upon Coruscant and Mustafar. Seeing his son face the Emperor, just as Windu did before, and recalling his wife's attempts to save him, gave Anakin the chance he always hoped for: to protect those he loved and to become a true Jedi.
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skorpiuss
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 2:49 PM
vader is weak?no way...yoda to luke : your power isnt in your muscles,it is in your head..(starwars 5 or 6)sorry for my poor english,but yoda`s words were similar to these...
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JediMasterPickles
Slowly Turning To The Dark Side!
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 3:06 PM
I'm sticking to my Blasters about the Force Lightning theory.
Anakins redemption only requires Darth Vader to die.. Not Anakin Skywalker!
If 'Vader' ,returning to the Force, decided to overthrow Palpatine, He could then try and rule the galaxy as a reformed Jedi or return it to a republic.
Then, the prophecy and GLs idea both stand true
The redemption of Anakin Skywalker
The Force is brought back into balance
I've just thought.. just say there are two Jedi, for 'Balance' shouldn't there be two Sith?
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Mace Nguyendu
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 4:20 PM
I think the only reason Vader killed the Emperor is the greatest fighting element of all: surprise. He could definately beat him if he had his normal body, but alas, he doesn't. So I think Vader knew this, and he didn't want to kill the Emperor because he knew that he'd die. You see where I'm coming from here? 
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DarkSider66
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 4:46 PM
Yeah, he could've made Luke a Sith and all, but he basically changed back to Anakin, if that makes sense. So he wouldn't want to, since he realized his evil ways, and stuff...
_______________________________________________
Feel the wrath of DarkSider66! I said FEEL THE WRATH!!!
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DarthMaul70
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 6:56 PM
Clouded is this line of thinking about Ani in this blog.He was a fool who believed a lie.Its amazing how thick Palp spreads the mustard in the opera. He played Ani like a fiddle.
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chelsea_cay421
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 7:29 PM
DarthMaul70 is totally right. how could anakin be a "ghost" with obi, and yoda if he had intentions of gettin luke as his apprentice?
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DarthSeelman
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 9:49 PM
I feel that After all of the loss that Anakin endured during his life, he felt the need to save his son. It appeared to him that he had lost everything in his life at the end of ROTS. With the revelation of his children (that he ultimately didn't know about until ESB) he started to regain compassion..which ultimately led to Anakin regaining control and becoming his true self once again!
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DarthSeelman
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 9:51 PM
I feel that After all of the loss that Anakin endured during his life, he felt the need to save his son. It appeared to him that he had lost everything in his life at the end of ROTS. With the revelation of his children (that he ultimately didn't know about until ESB) he started to regain compassion..which ultimately led to Anakin regaining control and becoming his true self once again!
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R2 - D5
See through you, we caaaaaaan !!!
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date Posted: Nov 16, 2005 10:07 PM
He couldnt save his mother... he coulldn't save Padmé (actually he killed her trying to save her)... Saving Luke was his last chance to save someone of his kind from dying. Not by power but by sacrifice and by selflessness. He did it, he turned from the dark side, he redeemed himself and he became one with the force.
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lamainferno
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 4:55 AM
I think it's a very nice parallel to RotS. Once again, Palp has the key to the future of the Jedi under high power lightning, and once again Anakin has the power to tip the balance. But this time, instead of disliking the Jedi (Mace) he loves the Jedi (Luke) and comes full circle. Sunrise on the face of Vader.
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 7:58 AM
Vader was being kept alive by the power of the Dark side which Sidious was the master of. Besides, Sidious used the power he learned form PLagueas to keep Vader from dying. Killing his master meant he would die. That is why he said nothing could stop that now. That is why he said he could not disobey his master. Even though ultimately that was the Sith way. It was Palpatine's defense against the way of the Sith. It was also why the Sith were destroyed. The apprentice destroyed the Master, which destoryed the apprentice. An irony of doom just liek it was for the Jedi in ROTS
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jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:05 AM
Vader was no more. Anakin was reborn by love and compassion for Luke. He selfless saved his son, knowing he would die doing it. As a Sith he always had thoughts of overthrowing his master. But for 20 years he did not because he could not. At this point he did not do it for power he did it for love. He saved Luke just like Luke saved him.
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Darth Imperius1
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:11 AM
As you can see, the Sith lords always think to betray the other sith, using a Force-sensitive person like Obi-wan, Padme or Luke. But Darth Vader knows that he could not destroy the Emperor alone. At the end of ROTJ, Anakin came back to the light side when he saw Luke in the same situation of Windu. The Emperor said to Anakin "you MUST Choose". This time he choose for the ligfht side. When Quin Gon Jinn died, he said to Obi-Wan the key to eternal life. He practice the tecnique before facing Darth Maul. ( Wen Quin Gon kneels and close his eyes like praying ) So Anakin gets eternal life when he destroy the Emperor, thinking only in the light side.
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MasterMoonlighter
The Great Mystery
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:26 AM
Some rather intelligent comments made in this thread. Especially JBl_USA, although this is never explicitly implied in the films. I believe that Sidious did keep Anakin from dying, simply because Anakin stayed with Sidious, he knew Sidious had the power. Or Anakin simply stayed because he wanted to help reshape the Galaxy. Either way, Anakin knew that he had to destroy the Emperor, the DArk Lord of the Sith, he had returned from the Dark upon seing Luke's suffering and entered the light by destroying the emperor, risking mortal injury.
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Irikthemenacer
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:32 AM
R2-D5 has the best thought so far. What drove Anakin crazy? Padme did, oh sure his mother dying hurt, but his love of Padme was intoxicating to him. As many young men do, he swore of EVERYTHING to be with his love. Again later he murdered and turned to the Dark side for HER. Why have been countless stories like this from ANCIENT times? It rings true in every age LOVE is intoxicating to point of stupidity.
When Palps LIED to Vader about how he killed her this destroyed Vader, his whole purpose of being, in his mind, was to learn power to save Padme. Being lied to the whole time made Vader distrust the Emperor, later after finding Luke.
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Irikthemenacer
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:33 AM
This how it goes down, in my mind, while Luke is being sizzled. Vader is hurt seeing his Master has control he starts using the Force to heal and cope. In his meditation he sees thru new eyes that Dooku was Palps' pawn, and that Palps used a then Anakin to kill Dooku as a test of his potential, mmmm things starting look familiar again, old Sith young Jedi, He thinks as he looks at Luke, "How did I lose everything I once cared about? That's right I didn't do anything last time I saw Palps blast a Jedi, I miss Padme, I loved her, this my son through her, I..I... Love my son, Die you lying SOB of an Emperor.
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Irikthemenacer
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 8:33 AM
Yes Vader at one point probably really wanted to Luke to switch over the Dark Side, but the events that followed he remembered his Love for Padme which was his identity of Anakin, and led him to do the ultimate selfless act, bringing him back into Light side, and have a Force spirit.
As an aside while the books are good and I have read my fair share of them, the only reason they exist is the vision of one George Lucas, who choice the media of film to tell his story, while it is very fun to discuss our own ideas let us all remember GL is Star Wars.
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craigg88
Mr. Slave 1
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date Posted: Nov 17, 2005 12:30 PM
nope sorry, vader turned good, it's not up to what the fans think or want with their dark side hearts, mine included, or georgy wrote the whole series for the redemtion of darth vader.
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CapJedi1
No Loose Wire Jokes
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date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 10:18 AM
Amazing thoughts behind this all. I tend to agree with some of the posters here stating that the answer is inherent in the movies themselves. The moment Vader slipped enough to allow 'Anakin' to choose to save his son, is the moment both Vader AND Anakin died. The anger, the self-fulfilling fuel of the Dark Side is what kept the 'spirit' of Darth Vader alive. Remember he allowed himself to become 'more machine than man.'
So in saving his son, Anakin turns from the anger that had sustained him for so long, his suit mechanics get fried by the Emperor, and he is finally at peace enough to die.
Beautifully layered, simplistic story or redemption and love.
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darthsins9
LORDSINS
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date Posted: Nov 18, 2005 3:55 PM
OUT GUSHES BLOOD THE MAKES OR BURNS LIGHTSABER THE THINK YOU DO.
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yodascholar
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date Posted: Nov 19, 2005 12:04 PM
The systems, computers and advanced systems that kept him alive were fried, too much lightning. I think they used more advanced technology with Grievous, cause he was just a heart and brain, some veins too, but 99% machine, Vader should have been very agile, but oh well, he wasn't.
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yodascholar
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date Posted: Nov 19, 2005 12:06 PM
By the way, I don't think Vader wanted to kill the Emperor to turn Luke to the dark side. He saved Luke, and we can see the conflict before he took the decision of killing the Emperor.
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SlaveoftheForce
Enter the 36th Chamber
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date Posted: Nov 20, 2005 9:56 PM
You should read the ROTJ novelization, it actually says that after Vader hurled Palpatine down the shaft he attempted to jump off too... and it has alot of Anakin's thoughts as Luke was looking on his unmasked face... like Anakin really truly hating himself and thinking that Luke must be disgusted by him. The book even makes the appearance of Hayden's face in the Jedi Spirits make sense.
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Obi-Wan Kenobi1999
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date Posted: Nov 21, 2005 5:03 PM
I just thought I'd answer JediMasterPickles' question about balance. No there shouldn't be two Sith also because the Sith move everything into chaos and making it difficult for people to live calmly and peacefully.
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Obi-Wan Kenobi1999
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date Posted: Nov 21, 2005 5:04 PM
If that was even a question lol 
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DarthPlaguies99
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date Posted: Apr 01, 2007 10:57 AM
He didn't think he would be on the receiving end of the force Lightning....thats why they call it "destiny".....!!!!
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Vader2.051
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date Posted: Aug 15, 2007 7:15 AM
sith hunter 123 makes a good point that he would not have come back as a spirit and that he probably didn't know he was going to sacrifice himself
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