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So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date posted: Apr 13, 2006 5:19 AM  |  updated: Apr 15, 2006 9:20 AM
I Find Your Lack Of (something) Disturbing
I've been watching the saga again in chronological order and a few weeks back I finished reading the prequel books along with The Rise of Darth Vader book and I feel like something is missing in the story arc of Vader.

We see Anakin have emotional conflicts from TPM through RotS and then his eventual downfall into joining the Sith with Palpatine's help. Anakin follows his instructions and kills the younglings, anyone else in his path in the Jedi Temple, and the Trade Federation leaders out on Mustafar; he is well on his way to becoming the ultimate feared killing machine in the galaxy, and the Obi-Wan cuts him down to size and he finds out Padme dies...his mind is a mess and he has to get used to his new armored suit. In the book his emotional conflicts about what happened with Padme, is Palpatine messing with him or trying to make him stronger, and will he ever have the power he once thought he could have shows that he overconfidence isn't what it once was.

Nearer the end of the book he's tapped into the Dark Side to help wipe out the Jedi who were opposing him...but in my opinion from how I read the book it seemed as though that was the last of the Jedi that were around trying to cause problems for the new Empire. If this is the case, I feel that Vader is lacking some motivation or events to turn him into the feared person that he becomes or is portrayed as in A New Hope.

When the audience first glimpses Vader in ANH his image exudes fear and something evil...but if one doesn't read the Rise of Vader then perhaps imagination can help fill the void for what the Dark Lord did during the gap between films, but even then when I watch the movies I feel like I'm missing something in the rise of this feared killer. He took out a few Jedi who tried banding together, but General Grievous to me would have been a more feared villain because of the amount of Jedi he himself took out during his reign of terror.

Watching through A New Hope there is implied fear of Vader, but it seems as though he himself is content with this perceived image of himself even bowing down to orders from Tarkin and having to justify himself to the likes of Admiral Motti. Of course, at the end of the film when he his foiled in his attempt to save the Death Star he gets pissed off and then again brings out his anger in Empire Strikes Back. He takes over a city, puts Han in carbonite, and chops off his own son's hand - he clearly was put in a sour mood over having the Death Star destroyed on his watch. Then, during Return of the Jedi he seems to have calmed down again and through his son realized that what he was doing was wrong and there was still good in him - though in my opinion he showed more good in the original trilogy (save for his bad mood in ESB & torturing his daughter in ANH) than he did bad.

  sin1732
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 7:14 AM
I haven' t read the rise of darth vader, but i always thought he went on some sort of one-man killing spree, slaughtering jedi, and that's why everyone feared him.
  Darth_Muh
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 8:44 AM
I agree, I thought Dark Lord was too short and didn't delve deep enough into Vader's mind, personality, motives, etc...

Maybe there could be a sequel in the works (I hope, I hope, I hope :D )
Jedi Master Mina
Jedi blogging, go back to your drinks!
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 10:17 AM
I liked Dark Lord, but I agree with you in that I would have liked to have read more of Vader's character. I thought Luceno did do a good job showing the conflict between the good and bad of Vader (Anakin) and how he was betrayed by Sidious too.

I think in ROTJ we, the audience, see a more mature and older Vader (Anakin) and the process of him letting go of his anger. Life is a cycle and process. You will learn that as you get older, you get more calmer about life and things in general.

I think with Luke thrown into the mix, all the old memories and love that Vader once buried comes back to the surface, making him choose between staying a Sith Lord or turning back to the light. :)
  spanKdaDarkmonkey
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 7:09 PM
Well picture this, you have a ruthless killer with beyond jedi power and NO jedi to stop him. The jedi were the hope of the galaxy and now they are all gone. Its like being alone in a locked room as a young child with the parents gone for the weekend, no one to stop the boogieman. Sounds terrifiying to me.
  darth funky disco
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 7:21 PM
Yes...In Vader's mentality, perhaps it was.
  darth funky disco
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 7:22 PM
:|
  gallandro77
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 8:45 PM
I think the fear of vader came from everything he did after the jedi. He had finally destroyed his moral compass. By killing what he thought was all the jedi, and losing padme, he had no reason to do right. He had nothing to really fight for. The galaxy saw this man who killed for no reason. He no longer saw any value to life.
  llchoosenOnell
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 9:00 PM
Vader gets the resect and fear of others when he is seen on the kaysheck ripping apart wookies like they were teddy bears. Before vader killed all the jedi people saw Vader as another grevouis. some one doing all the dirty work for the empire. Once he has the respect and fear others he becomes so lost in the dark side that the old skywalker is dead and he becomes married to the dark side.

Vader also realizes that he can never go back to naboo or back home because it would bring back memories of anakin. Luke brings those memories of padme and the hero he once was back. That is when i saves luke from the emperor and comes back to the light.
  SithLordJ7
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 9:12 PM
I agree totally, Vader, at times, seems like he is a nice guy, except when he goes on killing rampages!
  Dark_Lord_of_the_Kupo
date Posted: Apr 13, 2006 9:51 PM
Very good way of putting things. I haven't read The Rise of Darth Vader, but I like to use my imagination when it comes down to what he did between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope to make him such a feared villain to non-Imperials (but just as easily a well-respected, as well as feared, Lord to the loyal Imperials). It's funner that way! :D

Great blog.

-LFL
  jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 1:34 AM
Well guys, think of it this way, in an Empire filled with strong-armed Generals, Governors, Moffs, and Grand Moffs, what exacly did Vader do? Palpatine was a political figure. He was the Emperor. The Supreme ruler who was obviously evil but had to keep a different facede. So who was Vader? Vader was the EVIL of the empire. Vader was the impersonation of everything the Empire represented and did. The Empire was Palpatine's reign. but it was Vader's in reality, at a symbolic level.
  jbl_usa
Master Vernun Linde - Keeper of the Force Archives and the Journal of the Wills
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 1:34 AM
The reason why the Rebellion managed to survive was because many people hated the Empire, but many more feared it. And if Vader was the heart of the Empire, it is easy to understand why he was hated and feared so much. I have no doubt he was also a great evil doer. He was after all the Supreme Inquisitor and Enforcer of the Empire (not to mention supreme military figure). But beyond what he actually did, he was feared because of what he represented.
  serdna
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 4:06 AM
Lord Vader was the only one who could still use the Force (of course, Palpatine too). I think if we have one guy who can shock people from distance and use a lightsaber, we fear him too, we really fear him!!!. It's something we won't understand because we are not force sensitive and hi would be the only one showing those powers. Those magic trick!!!
  lordvader991
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 6:02 AM
Have you read the book RotS by Matt Stover? Because Stover really gives you an idea on how it feels to be Anakin fighting Dooku, how it feels to be Anakin becoming a Sith, how it feels to be Anakin in the black suit. He also does this with most of the other characters too.

PS I liked the Grievous Vader comparison because after all, in a way, Grievous was a preview to what Anakin would become. ]:)
  Emperor Colonicus
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 6:53 AM
Thinking that Vader did more good in the OT than he did bad is ridiculous. For starters, why exempt his actions in ESB? He did that of his own free will. One of the major points in ESB was to show how much of an BMF Vader actually was.

At any rate, I strongly agree with you that something is missing with Vader. He just doesn't seem to be much of the Darth Vader we all know and love until the very end of the book when he begins to show the first tiny glimmerings of it. I think the book depicting his actions post-ROTS needs to be rounded up, burned and re-written by a different author.
  darth vinsidious
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 7:08 AM
What's missing is the 20 years between tilogoe in which vader proves himself o be the baddest dude around. Over that span he must dispatch nearly every enemy of the empire.
teh_dude
So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 7:46 AM
Have you read the book RotS by Matt Stover?

I did read the Matt Stover book, even met him at CIII :) , but I still feel like something is missing. Unless Vader went around 'taking care of' senators who opposed the Empire, which I wouldn't mind reading about, I still feel his outward appearance as a vicious person is relegated just to the killing of one senator and 2 Jedi.

The only people who saw him on Kashyyyk were Clone Troopers and if I recall quite a few people that were fighting ended up dying during the planet bombardment. Not many people saw him on Alderaan either since that action took place on the opposite side of the palace (it's been a while since I read the book so I might be mistaken on that).
  Oboe-Wan
Oboe-Wan's Hive of Scum & Villainy
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 7:57 AM
I had actually thought, before ROTS was released, that anakin would already be IN the DV suit when he started killing off the Jedi. That would instill fear of the "thing" that is DV, like what we see in ANH.

Instead, we have Anakin looking like Anakin killing Jedi then being "killed" himself to resurface as DV. But no one, except Yoda & ObiWan know that DV is Anakin reborn.... so why, other than it being pretty menacing body armor, would people fear DV so much?

I hope there is another book soon that explains this.

Great blog.
  weatheriscool@hotmail.com
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 8:11 AM
I think just by his appearance! Think about it, the suit wasn't only for him to stay alive, it was to make him scary. If they hadnt wanted him to look scary, they could have pulled a greivous on him and made him a robot that looked like his former self, even if they couldn't do that they could have made him less bulky. Also remember that between RoTS and ANH, there was the constrction of the DEATH STAR which Vader was basically the leader of, and by that time everyone has known the name of the EMPIRE and its leaders, save for emporer palpatine.]:) :O
  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 10:56 AM
You are all over reacting.

This book is not meant to be the final scene of the jedi purge but the beginning of Darth Vaders. This book had to take care of number of important issues. How does Darth Vader learn to be a strong forceful fighter instead of a swift agile fighter, how does he come to terms with Sidious minipulating him, why he is unable to kill Papatine etc.

  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 10:57 AM
There are several stories of Vader killing other Jedi as well as other storm troopers killing Jedi that clearly happen after Dark lord. For some examples check out the comic book Purge were vader kills a number of jedi while looking for Obi-wan or check out the video game BattleFront 2 where the empire kills a number jedi who are suporting the rebellious rule of Naboos newly elected queen.

Also i am sure there will be more books on Vader killing Jedi and other force powerful people coming out in the next while. Also read some of the comic books. remember it is not just that he killed jedi but also forcesensitives.
teh_dude
So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 11:04 AM
I didn't think the video games were considered part of the EU (in regards to Battlefront 2)
  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 2:45 PM
Battlefront 2 is often referenced in character descriptions on Starwars.com. so I would say that that story line does fit. anyways you must admit that my point of Dark Lord not being the end but the beginning to be a valid one.
  SCRAPINFRAME
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 2:55 PM
the rise of vader is the same as rise of dark lord?????????
  Qui Dan
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 3:00 PM
I felt the same way! I read only the Vader parts of Dark Lord.

I was watching Episode IV with George's commentary this week, and was discouraged to hear his thoughts on the very subject: cyber-Vader's not as bad as we all thought he was. And something to the effect of Vader's being wimpy. Didn't care for that.

On hierarchy: 'he was only equal to the officers under Palpatine, but not precisely part of the military structure.'

It seems bio-Vader posed a greater threat, yet only "equal" to Obi Wan. I could wrong.

In fact, I'd like to see Vader tearing it up in this 100-epside TV show .

Maybe fans could create a 100-ep TV series with such a cyber-Vader, like the fan-made New Voyages of original Star Trek?
teh_dude
So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 3:28 PM
anyways you must admit that my point of Dark Lord not being the end but the beginning to be a valid one.

I never actually thought about more books being written...though once you mentioned it I was quite intrigued by the fact that perhaps there is more waiting out there for us :)
  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 14, 2006 9:39 PM
All I know for sure is that there is stuff going on in the comic world. But there will likely movels as well. I have also heard that there will be a tv shore coming out which take place between episode 3 and 4. lots for room in that time frame, we are looking at a 19 year time frame with less then half that time covered in significant stories.
grayson*
screaming though cabonite
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 2:34 AM
you can't doubt his pain.

have you ever been the one that knows something and they don't listen...

or the one that needs something...

or the one that can do something...

or can't but must.

and then you fail at everything you ever hoped for.

everything you ever wanted to be.

can you be you again or do you hide behind the new you and erase the past.

destroy it.

wake up with plans not haunted by your failure.

anakin to vader makes sense.

and every choice made over the 19 years.

build a new order and the old one is lost.
9-foot-jedi-wookie
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 10:44 AM
I have read Rise of Darth Vader, and he doesn't actually kill all of the remaining Jedi. At the end of the book, some of the Jedi who opposed Vader are still alive. In fact, it never even says that those Jedi were the last. And besides, with the new Empire coming into power, there were bound to be political opponents that Palpatine needed Vader to eliminate. So basically, there were certainly other things Vader did between Ep. III and IV to make himself feared than just killing a few Jedi.
  jedimaster13109
Meditations of a Star Wars Fan
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 12:43 PM
Perhaps the answer lies in just assuming for yourself how he became so evil rather than relying on a book for answers.
  darthseinfeld
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 3:09 PM
This book was written by a man with no say in the happenings of star wars, you cant just write a book and say it is actually a star wars event, Over 20 years one would settle down a bit, after events like jedi kiling, and much rage. Darth Vader had the death star and the alliances death to look forward to as well. He doesnt have to be as mad as he was 20 years ago
teh_dude
So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 4:11 PM
Perhaps the answer lies in just assuming for yourself how he became so evil rather than relying on a book for answers.

But isn't it sometimes more fun to read/hear what other people think about it ;)

This book was written by a man with no say in the happenings of star wars, you cant just write a book and say it is actually a star wars event


So then am I to assume that all the Star Wars books I've read aren't actual events?
  Dooku1556
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 4:28 PM
Maybe it was some poopy directing that Darth Vader was not made mean enough.
  darthseinfeld
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 6:14 PM
BLOG WRITER: You assume correctly, most of the books you have read are not actuall star wars events, apart from the movie books. ANyhting not seen in the movies is not true, unless approved by Lucas and shown in his movies somehow, like Aayla secura for instance. Otherwise the books cant be relied on as a source.
  darthseinfeld
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 6:22 PM
Also, the books just serve as entertainment and can be an example of what might have went on, like the battles of the clone wars probably are similair to the clone wars books, but not exact. Cato Neimodia was metioned for instance, by Obi Wan, creating the grounds for a book, so events such as these can be imparted into a book.
The same applies to games, people assume they are the real deal.
George Lucas stated that he relies on the fans to write more tales, but ones that arent believable can be stamped out, like the EMperors ressurection, or merrying Mara Jade.
  darthseinfeld
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 6:22 PM
THE RISE OF DARTH VADER was highly entertaining and I enjoyed it, it was a good porttrayal and gives insight into what COULD have happened. The Expanded Universe is debatable from all angles.
SO, technically theyre untrue, but the events told if believable can be imparted into the tale, unless contraducting with later made TV series, or the movies,.
  Master Rubin
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 6:31 PM
Its interesting that you mentioned Vader bowing down to Tarkin and having to prove himself to Motti. I noticed that when watching the movies, Vader speaks twice about overthrowing the Emperor. Once in ROTS to Padme, and again in ESB to Luke. I'm not sure if this has anything to do w/your blog, but it is pretty thought-provoking.?:|
teh_dude
So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 7:13 PM
Darthseinfeld - isn't it all just speculation and entertainment though ;)


Rubin - Anakin's idea to overthrow Palpatine in ROTS was pre-suit and pre-loss of Padme so I didn't count that. In ESB it was after he realized his son was still alive so he brought the feelings back of overthrowing Palp...until of course he found out his son was mentally stronger than him for not giving into the Dark Side.
  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 9:08 PM
Ok I am not sure how much there is a disconnect between what George Lucas creates for his movies and what ends up in books. All the writer seem to consult with George and use his archives. I am also pretty sure that for the major books the writer is given direction from Lucas. This book is definately a major books. The last chapter shows how Obiwan goes from wise Jedi master to crazy old hermit.

  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 9:09 PM
An interesting note about other stories of vader killing Jedi. I just picked up the latest Star Wars insider (87). It has an article on order 66, which includes the description of Roan Shryne being killed by Darth Vader. Shryne is the Jedi that is killed by Vader at the end of Dark Lord. The article also includes the descripton of how three Jedi being killed that were not killed in ROTS or Dark Lord the rise of Darth vader. So there is either some good stuff in the comics that I have read yet or there are more books. Probably booth. There are some good issues of Star Wars Republic that are coming out in July in Trade Paper back which will focus on Darth Vader starting his purge.

  Darthofarrell
date Posted: Apr 15, 2006 9:10 PM
This article was presented as a memo to Palpatine. It included everyone killed in Rots. an interesting note is that it did not include the death of Mace Windu since he was killed before the order was given.
  DarthXbox360
date Posted: Apr 16, 2006 1:30 PM
well Vader does have 19 years to become the most feared individual. for instance in shadows of the empire they mention Vader being responsible for the distruction of the Falleen homeworld...and all of its inhabitants.
  Darth Anakin45
date Posted: Apr 16, 2006 3:05 PM
well darth vader sayed i find your lake of faith disturbing and what dus faith mean it means to beleve in some thang or some one in this case vaders faith is in the emporor the outher guy had faith but not so mush as vader did and vader had all of his faith in the emporor.
  jediravenseven
date Posted: Apr 16, 2006 7:19 PM
I read The Rise of Darth Vader and it was a decent read and did present some good explanations. Sidious has all the power of the dark side at his disposal and Vader craves that power. After losing everything and everyone he has ever cared for or loved, what else does he have left. As Anakin in AOTC he told Padme that he was not all powerfull but that he should be. He already craved for more power and Sidious knew it, and played on it. In the end as Vader, Anakin embraced that craving for power. To me it will be the use of that unlimited power that will make him the most feared being in the galaxy.
  jediravenseven
date Posted: Apr 16, 2006 7:39 PM
As for Vader's suit being a reason to fear him... yes, it was meant to instill fear I believe. Still, it also seemed to humble him to Sidious as Sidious could easily just shut down Vader suit. Still, I do wonder if it would have been more frightening if Vader had never been in that suit and been recognized as Jedi Skywalker. That thought actually gives me more shivers. That is another purpose for the suit, though, to hide who he really was.
  Henna@YVH 1
date Posted: Apr 17, 2006 1:02 AM
But I think Rise of the Dark Lord was just the beginning.....imagine there are roughly about thirty years between Rots and a new hope. And of course Vader did not just eliminate Jedis, but also political opponents for example like Xizor, leader of the dark son.
  _x_Darth-Max_x_
date Posted: Apr 17, 2006 5:33 AM
I dont think that Palpatine and vader where the Only *Dark* FOrce Users. As Stated somewhere in the databanks Byss was guarded by Force Sensitives.

Henna is right About Xizor. If Vader wouldn't haven taken him out, He could had become Palpatines Right hand.

Though I Highly doubt Xizor Could surpass Vader
teh_dude
So, at last we meet for the first time for the last time
date Posted: Apr 17, 2006 5:49 AM
Henna - there were only 19 years between ROTS & ANH...though that still is quite a bit of time to get stuff done ;)

I do think that Vader would have been more feared if he was NOT in the suit. Everyone saw the work Anakin & Obi-Wan did during the Clone Wars and viewed him as the ultimate hero...seeing him as a member of the Dark Side would've been a huge shock to all who saw his work stopping the Separatist army.

Also, I totally forgot about Vader taking out Xizor as well. It's been a LONG time since I read that book.
  LordRapuung
date Posted: Apr 17, 2006 6:14 AM
WOW!!!!!

Alot of good thoughts from everyone. Vader/Anakin ALWAYS fought for what he beleived in wheather he was Jedi or Sith. Anakin's biggest weakness was his power, his visions of Padme's death is what ultimately turned him into Vader, well - that and his "lack of faith in himself". Anakin knew himself as the chosen one as predicted by Qui-Gon (Man, Qui-Gon rocked!), but his lack of paitence in himself to evolve into himself is what made him weak.


  LordRapuung
date Posted: Apr 17, 2006 6:14 AM
There is a 19 year gap that has to be filled (if it takes 21 novels for a 5 year span during the New Jedi Order - then look out you will see more novels on the rise of Vader and The Empire) between ROTS and ANH. Vader undergoes a huge military campaign during this time, I'm sure. I believe this is when his "reputation" is earned, but Lord Vader and the politics of the Empire do not go hand and hand. The Empire was Papatine's machine to carry out his bidding but, Vader was his enforcer.
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