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Stars To Fill My Dream
date posted: Jun 30, 2005 2:03 PM  |  updated: Jun 30, 2005 3:24 PM
Did Vader want to overthrow Palpatine all along?
Sure, in the end he did (literally) overthrow Palpatine. And in Episode III he mentions it to Padmé on the Mustafarian landing platform. The question in my mind is: was this a continuous desire from that moment right up until he chucked the Emperor down the shaft, or not?

Remember that the line in Episode III came before he got baked and put in the suit. Psychologically he was a different man.

After his transformation he would have been stewing in some pretty serious bitterness and self-pity, and to some degree felt he owed Palpatine for saving him from the lava beach. This may have helped negate his initial desire to "off" the Emperor.

Much like a psychologically abusive spouse, Palpatine would have had ways to manipulate Vader into staying with him. Look at all the plotting that went into corrupting Anakin to begin with--once there it would be a comparatively simple matter to keep him on the leash, periodically setting him loose on some Rebels or leftover Jedi or incompetent admirals, to take out his aggression on.

But eventually he realized being Palpatine's b!tch wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and that's when he resurrected his old notion of revolution. Yet he knew firsthand how powerful Palpatine was, so even after he hatched the idea he would have been very careful to get all his ducks in a row before moving against him. Enter Luke Skywalker, and suddenly the timetable accelerates.

I'm sure Palpatine milked "I rescued your crispy torso and put you in this position of incredible power, so you owe me" as much as he could. But by the time of Episode VI--after Vader had been living under Palpatine's heel for 23 years and now he knew he had a son--that just didn't cut it anymore.

The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 30, 2005 4:39 PM
Psychologically speaking, I think Anakin was perhaps far more confident than the events that put him in that suit.

However, the flipside of that is he was also exceptionally foolhearty, and naive.

Like a blind man compensates for his site with touch and hearing, Anakin compensates for his broken state with the lessons he learned from it, and replaces his arrogant nature with something far more cold and calculating.
The Dark Moose
Moose Poodoo
date Posted: Jun 30, 2005 4:39 PM
I think Anakin did intend to overthrow Palpy all along, but he simply got detoured into servitude for more than 2 decades. What he would have done with bravado, he now would do with slow conviction, waiting for the right opportunity. He's a Sith, after all. It's what they do with their masters, it seems. It's the initial reason for the rule of 2 - they all wanted power from each other.
  jedimaster2778
date Posted: Jun 30, 2005 4:53 PM
If you got to play the Revenge of the Sith game, you had to beat Anakin with Obi Wan first, then beat Obi Wan with Anakin. When Anakin beat Obi Wan, he went over to the Emperor and the Emperor said, "Now there is no one to oppose us", and hands Anakin his new red lightsaber. He says, " Now the galaxy is ours", or something to that effect. Anakin toys with his lightsaber just to make the Emperor think that nothing is wrong and suddenly jabs the Emperor with it. Anakin then says, "No, the galaxy is mine". To get to the point, I think Anakin wanted to kill the Emperor all along he just never saw the chance. I'm sorry that my comment was so long.
  smokey3779
Jedi Master Smokey
date Posted: Jul 01, 2005 12:06 AM
The novelization of 'Revenge of the Sith' had some insight on this. After Anakin wipes out all of the Seperatist leaders on Mustafar he contacts Palpatine to inform him that he had completed his mission. Palpatine warns Anakin that he can feel something in the force coming for him and warns him. Anakin just kind of smiles and nods and more or less thinks to himself 'Palps, no need to be warning me of trouble when you yourself should be wary of me.' He's already thinking about overtaking him for power. After Anakin is saved by the Emperor and fitted to his new body, he asks him about Padme. cont.
  smokey3779
Jedi Master Smokey
date Posted: Jul 01, 2005 12:13 AM
When the reply is 'you killed her in your anger' he starts to freak. In the movie you see things in the room start to explode because of Anakins frusterations. In the book Anakin is trying desperately to crush Palpatine who's ruined his life but is no longer strong enough and decides that everything that was important to him was gone and that only Palpatine took any interest in him so he decided to be his stooge. cont.
  smokey3779
Jedi Master Smokey
date Posted: Jul 01, 2005 12:13 AM
On that note George Lucas described Anakin as having the potential to be '10x as powerful as Palpatine' but being physically destroyed he was only about '80% of Palpatine'. Palps is lucky that Anakin was dismembered by Obi Wan. Otherwise he wouldn't have survived much longer himself. With that perspective, Obi Wan saved the Galaxy from certain doom.
  Master Starkeiller
POWWWAAAAHHH!!! UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNLIMITEEED POWWWAAAAHHH!!!
date Posted: Jul 03, 2005 3:50 PM
Anakin's potential was unlimited. But he never reached Palpy's or Yoda's greatness. Wasted midi-chlorians I say...
  Obi-Wanlover#81
date Posted: Jul 05, 2005 8:37 AM
I say, it would have been cool to see Anakin kill Obi-Wan, then kill Palpatine, and let's face it, Obi-Wan fan's from the prequels, it's not like Ewan Mcgreggor would have been in Ep. four, and Palps won't be there, so basicly there wouldn't be an alliance. Also, I would have had it Padme' didn't die, even though that's difficult to explain, because you could say she was one of the founding members of the alliance just not in the movie.I would have just liked it if Anakin as Darth Vader ( Not in the suit ) rule with all of the sector governors and had Padme' at his side even though she would not wanted to go along with the whole "Empire" idea. I liked Anakin as a Sith Lord better than how he was in the original Star Wars.
  aurora1270
date Posted: Jul 09, 2005 8:16 PM
I thinkd Vader originally wanted to kill Palpatine (we can see this in the movie and in the novel) but after losing Padme and knowing that there is no going back to the jedi (the 2 that are left) he sees no alternative but to stay with Palpatine. He made his bed now he has to lie in it.
Valin Kenobi
Stars To Fill My Dream
date Posted: Jul 10, 2005 9:04 PM
Thanks for the comments, everyone.

Dark Moose

Like a blind man compensates for his site with touch and hearing, Anakin compensates for his broken state with the lessons he learned from it, and replaces his arrogant nature with something far more cold and calculating.

Oooh, good description. I like. :)
Valin Kenobi
Stars To Fill My Dream
date Posted: Jul 10, 2005 9:08 PM
jedimaster2778 & smokey3779

You're right, that's what I suspect would have happened had he not gotten torched like he did. Becoming "more machine than man" severely curtailed his options, and derailed his plans for quite some time it seems.
Valin Kenobi
Stars To Fill My Dream
date Posted: Jul 10, 2005 9:09 PM
aurora1270

I thinkd Vader originally wanted to kill Palpatine (we can see this in the movie and in the novel) but after losing Padme and knowing that there is no going back to the jedi (the 2 that are left) he sees no alternative but to stay with Palpatine. He made his bed now he has to lie in it.

My thoughts exactly. He'd burned all his bridges and there was really no other option remaining to him. If he turned his back on Palpatine now he'd have all three sides gunning for him--Empire, surviving Jedi, Separatist remnants.
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